Signed up, paid (or donated, not sure how it works) maximum amount for the app. It’s about $18 for a trial period, then something like $200 per 3 months after the trial. Dirt cheap if it helps. I average less than 2 hours of sleep a night. Some notes.

* They start with a questionnaire about your sleep. But that seems to be like those deceptive political ads that look like a questionnaire but are just fundraising clickbait, because…

* After paying I had to fill out a nearly identical questionnaire. Hey, fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you fucking pricks. You just charged me money to waste my fucking life energy. Hey, did I mention I have sleep problems?

* The app provides some version of cognitive behavioral therapy via insulting cartoons. The main therapist or narrator or whatever is the most goddamn condescending talking cartoon owl I can imagine.

My sleep problems are no joke and being talked down to by an owl animated by a $75 Fiverr gig does not make me feel like a valued customer.

I’m desperate enough to go through with this but it’s not an auspicious start.

I have nothing to do with the product, and I understand the frustration. But if you sleep 2hrs/day you should probably be in a (psychiatric) hospital instead of trying apps. That is very severe, and likely caused by a significant (mental) disorder.

Also, as a side note, cognitive behavioral therapy may feel like it is infantlizing you because it is digging up stuff that an adult should be able to understand and process more or less effortlessly on their own. But that's kind of the point of that therapy.

All good points. I’m seeing my primary care physician with data from Fitbit the first time next week. Normally they just prescribed different sleep drugs, but none does anything for me. I think that up to this point, they probably assumed I was exaggerating the issues.

If this is correct that you are only getting 2 hrs sleep, and not just the data from your watch telling you bad number, your primary physician likely won't know enough about sleep to help.

Go see a sleep specialist.

The drugs will help you get unconscious, they don't help with sleep.

A CBT-I app is likely not the solution for you either.

Current sleep specialist just upsold me another cpap and plied me with more drugs. I don’t think they understand how bad it is, hence the Fitbit.

> The drugs will help you get unconscious, they don't help with sleep.

It’s something. I hate them though

> A CBT-I app is likely not the solution for you either.

I’d sacrifice a goat in Times Square if I thought it would help

You need to see another specialist doctor. Don't give up

Thanks man

I am open to recommendations of psychiatric hospitals that have effective sleep programs. Can you name any?

Might also want to try an psychologist. The person you go to often suggests solutions that they're familiar with. Meaning, if they often cure things with drugs they'll likely give you such a solution.

You didn't really specify the problem. Sometimes it could just be the brain. E.g. sleeping issues occurs more often with ASS. So see various types of specialists so that you're not stuck to the things a specialists knows about. Might be that another specialist more easily can spot your issue.

This sounds like helpful critique, but you might want to edit out the part about horses.

I meant every word. It was exactly what I felt seeing my precious hours on this earth vaporizing to no good end.

These are the same forms a sleep doc putting you on CBD-I will have you fill out.

Except they will charge you a lot more money, have you come to the office and have you fill out the same form 3 times a row (online, then at the office, then verbally while talking to doctor) in typical doctor’s office fashion

I have never been condescended to more than by that fucking owl

Fuck that owl

++

good problem to solve, nice personal story, but disappointed it is translating into clickbait+data scraping

How so?

From a pricing perspective, I think your incentives are misaligned with your users', which is a problem.

On a monthly model, you want users to keep renewing. However, users want their insomnia to be cured quickly.

What about flat pricing instead? 7 days free to get over the pricing friction, $150 to purchase a license to the customized program, possibly with a fairly weak warranty (minimum 10% improvement in sleep time in the first 6 months or your money back.)

Now your incentives are the same - get them "fixed" as quickly as possible and off the platform (and obviously upselling them on affiliate/related stuff if happy.)

Thank you for sharing your perspective on our pricing model. I genuinely appreciate that feedback.

We actually started our beta launch with a one-off pricing model. We only moved to the monthly model because we discovered through feedback from our beta users that chronic insomnia is fundamentally different from occasional sleep problems or light sleeping issues. Instead, chronic insomnia often comes from deep-rooted psychological factors, like unresolved anxiety, chronic stress, or burnout. These underlying issues can't typically be addressed with short-term solutions or quick fixes.

That's precisely why we believe a one-off program might not provide the continuous support and adaptability required to address such nuanced/varied problems. Our monthly model actually creates a strong incentive for us to provide a highly effective product. After all, no one is going to keep paying us if our product doesn't continue to help them. As a result, we continuously invest a ton of resources into developing new, top-notch clinical content, make it incredibly engaging via animated videos, and are always refining our offerings based on user feedback and the latest research.

(Disclaimer: I joined the Stellar Sleep team after they got into YC, partly because I also had insomnia for many years and went through a full $1000+ in-person CTB-I treatment regimen which helped quite a bit)

To add to George's point, people w/ chronic insomnia (like myself) had gotten this stage of consistent poor sleep after many month or years of negative behavioral/psychological conditioning. To see permanent improvement, it'll also take many months of positive conditioning. And there will be occasional relapses (due to new triggers, etc). And this is the case even if you go through a very good in-person CTB-I program that costs thousands of dollars.

Our pricing model (quarterly, and in the future, monthly) is tailored toward the changing needs of our users. The goal is to equip our patients with an arsenal of tools to manage their sleep problems depending on the root cause, and help them recover from relapses more quickly when they need it, with similar efficacy as seeing an in-person specialist at a fraction of the cost.

cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I)

No price information upfront, only shown after a lengthy quiz to ensure proper sunken cost while making the decision wether to buy or not. IMO disgusting.

Also, that fake loading bar while "building your personalized program" is cringe.

You had an opportunity to make your part in making the web a nice place again, yet you failed.

++

wonderful personal story, but doesn't look like it is translating 100% into empathy.

Hey there. It’s 4am, just woke up. I have been insomniac for a while now. But I have this kind if insomnia where I have no trouble at all falling asleep in the evening. I just wake up early. Way too early. And then I can’t go back to sleep. I don’t think I am anxious at all. I just stay there in my bed not doing much not thinking much. Usually I can do stuff, and then go back to sleep around 8am for a couple hours, which isn’t really compatible with having young kids and a job.

Can your app help me? Or is it made to help some other kind of insomnia?

I have the same issue after an acute long term sleep deprivation (slept 9 hours in 3 days with nearly no REM) 8 months ago. It turns out it damaged my thalamus (which is responsible for the wake-sleep alternance). Nothing can be done (at least currently) which is quite depressing, so I cope by taking long acting benzos which allow me to sleep 5-6 hours. From my research it also entice decreased ability to create « sleep spindle », if your sleep is also not qualitative and you’re not stressed, this may be an indication this is the same cause and you may want to see a neurologist.

Agreed! Definitely talk to your physician if you're unsure! Not all chronic sleep issues are psychological in nature.

I have the same problem. I can’t speak to this app but I used to be up for at least 2 hours reading on my phone finally falling asleep when I need to get up. What has been working for me the past few months are podcasts. Most times I’m back out in < 1 min. I really like Fall of Civilizations. In a distant second place would be Boring Books for Bedtime or Bedtime with Wikipedia. Really anything that doesn’t have loud noises or ads in the middle that you find soothing.

But yes, not waking up at all at 4am would be great.

I’ve been self medicating with podcasts to solve this exact issue for 5-6 years. I’d advise trying to wean yourself off it before it goes on too long. I now have tinnitus from the earbuds in my ears at night.

You can listen at a reasonable level (70dB) indefinitely, and up to about 80 for an 8-hour period, without any kind of hearing loss.

So the good news is unless you're absolutely blasting it with open buds to help block out background noise, the tinnitus was caused by something else, and there are many causes.

I actually had tinnitus for nearly a decade in my late 20s - mid 30s... thought is was noise induced from multiple concerts without earplugs, but eventually decided to make all sorts of lifestyle changes to reduce stress and improve sleep and it magically went away.

While we are on the topic of helpful sleep podcast, here I two I used to use:

Sleep With Me

https://www.youtube.com/@Sleepwithmepodcast

Jason Stephenson's Sleep Meditations

https://www.youtube.com/@jasonstephensonmeditation

Insomnia is defined as trouble falling asleep, or staying asleep. In your case, it seems like the latter. Our app might be able to help, but it also seems like you might be experiencing bi-phasic sleep which is more common than you imagine. Sleep restriction therapy (which begins in the second week of our program) might be able to help you consolidate your sleep into a narrower window if that's ideal for you. I would also recommend that you talk to your physician, especially if you have existing medical conditions. Hope you find a way to resolve/ manage your sleep issue!

You've ruled out that it's not just (what I've read was normal for some of our ancient ancestors) waking up for an hour in the middle of the night, to tend the campfire or whatever, and then go back to sleep?

No I did not rule that out. Problem is I rarely have campfires that need tending to.

FWIW, for a period that I was inexplicably waking up halfway through the night, just telling myself it was probably "normal", and that I'd probably go back to sleep in an hour... might've relieved some self-fulfilling concern that I wouldn't be able to go back to sleep.

I have this. But every time I go on holiday (like, proper leave the city holiday) it goes away immediately.

I believe it's stress related for me. Meditation and sleep hygiene works, but nothing else so far. YMMV, good luck.

Add it to the pile. I think this is an important issue, but I don't understand why devs are compelled to create apps when the goal is just telegraphing information, and you only need to do that once. That's what books are for. I guess you'd have to count on there being a demographic that only wants to absorb information through apps.

Much of the content is (and ought to be) freely available information anyway, at least for boilerplate CBT-i (see e.g. https://insomniasos.net/). Obfuscating what is the size of a buzzfeed article behind payments and apps to make a buck is absurd.

Seeing a professional is one option, but ymmv. GPs don't seem to know much about this and reflexively prescribe pills because that's what people want and expect of them. Sleep specialists can be good, but the source material behind their approach can be limited and dated (like CBT-i itself). What I did is read a pile of research articles (maniacally at first), and books. It's not for everyone, but you'll find more useful information than in glorified advertisements in google searches.

Thanks for the comment - I'm glad that you were able to find help online! Similar to you, I do consume a lot of content (and research articles) online, but to your point they are not for everyone. There's a lot of information online (some accurate, many not) that sometimes it's hard to tease out what's actually going to help especially for people who are sleep deprived. That's why we work with top sleep experts to create an app that users can trust, and we also conduct clinical studies with Harvard medical school/ Brigham's to validate our results.

That said, we do offer more than just information. We allow users to track their sleep on our app so we can customize our program. Each user goes through a personalized track based on their sleep habits. We also automatically calculate your sleep restriction window for you. We also have relaxation content that you can listen to right before you go to bed, a worry/ gratitude journal and a routine tracker.

> There's a lot of information online (some accurate, many not)

Books by (relatively) renowned/trustworthy experts are also a thing and they all cost less than your monthly subscription.

Books are a fantastic resource in this space. We made this into a 5-10 minute a day mobile app for a few reasons:

+ A lot of people don't have the time or patience to invest several hours into reading a book. They'd prefer things broken down into actionable steps. In fact, we've done a lot of product testing to figure out how to improve program efficacy and we found out that the shorter and more "bite-sized" we made our modules, the more willing our users were to follow them, and the better their result.

+ The big "open secret" in the sleep research community is that yes, CBT for insomnia is a great starting point, but it needs to be followed up with further psychology-based care. Stellar Sleep delivers CBT for insomnia-based programming initially, then transitions into continued psychology-based programming which sustains the results of the initial CBT for insomnia work.

Cool idea - can you say more up front about how this works? I went through the (long) survey just to get a paywall with no information on what to expect.

Also, do you plan to offer a version of this for teenagers? I noticed the youngest age range is 20.

Yes of course. After you fill up the survey, we will be able to recommend a personalized program for you that's tailored to your sleep habits.

The way it works is everyday, you will spend 5 - 10 minutes completing modules related to sleep/ psychology. These modules can be video or text based and is based on cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), which is the first-line treatment recommended by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine.

You also record your sleep on the app, so we can further personalize your program and also apply an algorithm to analyze your sleep patterns and adjust your bedtime automatically to improve your overall sleep quality.

You can learn more on https://stellarsleep.com/science.

Our app is recommended for 18yo and above. Hope this answers your question!

So for $63 a month customers can expect the app to:

- send them a daily quiz and youtube video

- suggest a bedtime

Is that an accurate summary?

I think this summary is ignoring CBT-I aspect, assuming they managed to make it work without interaction. CBT is pretty much a specialty that you learn with a therapist. My main concern about subj is on that. And also: if they really pulled it off, they may just pivot/extend to full-on CBT as well.

You are asking me to do a lot of work upfront before I get any kind of idea around costs. I couldn’t find any pricing information anywhere (except here in this thread) which is offputting to me. I didn’t fill in the quiz or survey or whatever it’s called, because why would I give info before you do?

I think these very long surveys for this kind of app are more geared towards getting people to sign up after investing so much time rather than actually helping the app to do its thing better.

A talking cartoon owl of sub-South Park quality tells you how to manage your life.

Wish I were kidding.

Same here. It does mention a daily email with advice and strategies, but I also feel like the paywall should appear after one week, not before any possibility to try what you are offering

Thanks for the feedback! We're definitely interested in exploring a freemium model. Currently, what we offer is a 7-day trial, with the option of canceling anytime within the app itself. We also have a 30-day moneyback guarantee, so if you decide at any point within 30 days that the program is not for you, you can get a full refund, no questions asked.

I noped out when you have to take the ISI to continue any further and then the only access to the results is via email (and wasn't a fan of the prechecked send-me-spam checkbox).

Thank you for your feedback! The reason why we needed your email is because we generate your sleep report and your personalized program asynchronously in our backend, but we can definitely consider showing some of the results immediately after the quiz without gating it. That being said, we promise not to spam (on average we send no more than 3 emails to users who stop engaging), and you can always unsubscribe from our mailing list.

I also think that this page shouldn't be burried in the knowledge base section: https://support.stellarsleep.com/portal/en/kb/articles/how-m...

Given the dark pattern around email, I immediately assumed your monetization was going to be via selling ads or personal data - I see that might not be the case, however I think that not making this very clear from the start is consumer unfriendly, particularly when your customer base is a self-described sleep-deprived individual who probably has mental health issues (which describes me, FWIW).

Ok this is super helpful. We do have a FAQ section with the same information (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) but yes, I totally agree with you. I never even thought that our users might assume that we'll be selling ads or their personal data so this is very useful context. FWIW, we take privacy very seriously and we're HIPPA compliant. In fact, we do work with several sleep clinics where providers actually refer their patients to our app, so we have very strict protections when it comes to personal data and PHI.

Thank you for this reply, it has been helpful - I will have another go this evening at home

Of course, let me know if you have any questions. Feel free to ping us at founders@stellarsleep.com

HIPAA

Just to clarify, you do get your ISI score (and the sleep benchmarking information) immediately after you answer those relevant sections in the quiz, without having to enter your email. Entering your email basically just gives you the consolidated report in one place.

Do you have any links to the research behind these CBT-I interventions? I'm curious what treatment looks like. I had never considered that I may have insomnia until just now, as I fall asleep fast and usually only wake up once during the night. However, I often wake up groggy and not feeling refreshed. I started tracking my sleep a couple months ago with a series 8 Apple Watch and consistently see only 20-45 minutes in a "deep sleep" phase.

I'd totally pay for this if it's something that might work, but honestly am skeptical about it working for my particular sort of sleep pattern. Congrats on the launch!

Thanks! And yes, here are a few articles if you're interested:

[1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/insomnia/in-d...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6796223/

There's also more information on https://stellarsleep.com/science.

If you don't think you have insomnia (you fall asleep fast and you stay asleep long enough), then you probably don't have chronic insomnia, which is what our app is designed for. That said, if you find yourself feeling groggy or not refreshed despite getting sufficient sleep, I would recommend that you talk to your physician. You might still find our app helpful (so give it a try and cancel if it doesn't work - we also have a 30-day moneyback guarantee), but just want to point out that our target audience is people with chronic insomnia.

I have no expertise, but this is my sleep. It turns out I have sleep apnea. I can "sleep" for 8 hours, but it does very little good. With apnea, you wake up as much as a few times an hour, getting very little REM. It took me years to consider apnea because I'm thin and somewhat fit. But all sorts can have it.

Definitely recommend going to a sleep clinic and see a sleep specialist if you have untreated sleep apnea. I have friends with sleep apnea who managed to resolve their insomnia by using cpap machines (although it might take a while to get used to it). In some instances, surgery might help too.

Mouth taping radically changed the quality of my sleep fwiw. Consistent nasal breathing is huge.

What kind of tape do you use?

When I played hockey, I used to wrap my wrists with tape. If I left the tape on too long I would always get this itchy rash. I believe the technical term is, " irritant contact dermatitis"

Can this be avoided when taping one's mouth shut?

You give an "average rating" of 4.8 with "500+ five star reviews", but Apple says 4.5 with 173 total ratings, and Android says 4.3 with 205 total ratings. Which sure makes it look like your average is not 4.8, nor have you received 500+ ratings at all, let alone 500+ five star ratings.

Ryan, I believe the discrepancy here boils down to 2 things. (1) We have a lot of users outside of the US and the stats you're looking at are only for the US App Store/Play Store, and (2) We've had several product updates including a re-branding which "resets" ratings. The ratings you see are the ratings for the current version of the app.

I’ve had issues with insomnia starting in college. Found out I have a slow metabolism of caffeine (it’s a genetic thing). I now sleep very well, getting 3-5 hours of deep sleep per night on about 7 hours of sleep. Things I’ve done to fix it:

- No caffeine after 12pm. I stopped drinking coffee a few months ago, but I was fine as long as I didn’t have it after 12.

- Exercise with some portion being vigorous HIIT or lifting. Running also helps. It should tire your nervous system out.

- Have a consistent sleep schedule. Don’t oversleep on weekends. I’m up at 6:30am every day, give myself 30 min to wake up. Get some sunlight to flush out the adenosine in your system (do this before you drink coffee to avoid the afternoon crash).

- AC goes to 67’f at night.

- Don’t work or study in bed.

- I bought a nice bed (Purple Premier 4 King).

- Blue light-blocking glasses about 2 hours before bedtime.

- Not being a founder helps a lot, but figuring out stress relievers otherwise.

- No alcohol. I’ve mostly stopped drinking, but this alone was the worst thing for my sleep. If I do drink, earlier is better, and only a few drinks.

- Mouthguard that prevents me from snoring at night. I don’t snore as much when I have a healthy BMI, but when overweight, I snore more.

- Stop working 2 hours before bedtime. Same for gaming. These things are too mentally stimulating.

- The things that stress you out, figure those out and make sure you’re feeling good about progress each day. For founders, this sometimes just won’t go away.

- I’ve tried prescribed sleeping medications, but the one I took didn’t actually improve quality sleep. It just made me feel tired and removed the stress. Some of these drugs are just sledgehammers on the pre-frontal cortex.

- Use a sleep tracker and figure out why you’re not sleeping well. Usually can be tracked to alcohol, large meals close to bedtime, or caffeine.

- I take melatonin at bedtime. I had fatigue that I believed was because of poor sleep since moving to Austin, but realized from a doctor that it was actually just allergies. I take Singulair, made a huge difference in my energy during the day.

Please, please, please for the love of everything, stop with these 1000 question 10 minute-long onboarding surveys with fake loading screens that lead you to the payment page (or worse, an email form) regardless of your answers.

These things are an insult to your users.

I don't care if some marketer from noom wrote a pdf about how it "increased conversion".

Just stop it. It's a horrible dark pattern.

Future.co does this too and it was really irritating. 20 screens of questions, interstitial ads for the product I'm signing up for sprinkled throughout, all to funnel me to a payment page for a service experience that isn't commensurately influenced by my inputs. They make you do an introductory call with your coach too, where much of that information could be provided instead, and in a more human way.

It does seem basically the same as signing up for a scam success course.

(Disclaimer: I joined the Stellar Sleep team after they got into YC, partly because I also had insomnia for many years and went through a full $1000+ in-person CTB-I treatment regimen which helped quite a bit)

Hey there! Wanted to chime in and let you know that we hear your concerns! I expressed the same sentiment about long surveys to George and Ed when I was considering joining their team. We're committed to making pricing, user onboarding, etc more transparent and easier for our users.

Yes, we do use onboarding survey responses to personalize our program. The programs on the payment page might look the same "regardless of your answers", but behind the scenes, we really are building customized modules based on your responses. For example, if a user mentions in the quiz that they have racing thoughts, we're working to surface relevant content earlier in the program and partnering with our professional sleep psychologists to create more modules that tailor to such needs.

Everyone on our team is constantly learning, and we do appreciate your feedback and patience! To get the app off the ground, we needed to make quick decisions in the beginning and just go with what made sense to us, but as we build out our team and incorporate more of your feedback, we're committed to doing better. I wouldn't work here if I didn't believe this was part of our mission.

Thanks for the transparent response. Even if some or all answers are used to either fully customize the program for the user, or to place the user in a particular track, it's still a bad onboarding experience.

The customer wants to see what your product is, what it does, how it does it specifically and succinctly, and how much it costs, front and center.

These "onboarding surveys" is a recently hyped dark pattern that uses a huge number of questions along with fake spinners, and random interstitials to trick the user into entering an email at the end, due to the cost sunk into the onboarding experience.

In marketing/sales speak, you're actually generating yourself a huge number of dud leads this way, making your true conversion numbers actually worse than what they could have been if you only signed up "serious" customers.

If you insist on using an onboarding survey, place it after the signup email, and restrict only to questions, answers to which you actually use to generate the program for the user.

Why do you ask the same questions twice to build your modules. That's the problem here.

cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I)

If the product actually worked, they wouldn't have to do this. People will pay lots of money for solving their sleep problems.

I agree, I think it's awful. It's a waste of everyone's time and insulting to people who have a problem and feel slightly vulnerable. People aren't just numbers or conversion rates, and especially in digital health they should be treated respectfully.

Oh don’t worry. It’s only about 15 questions or so. Then when you sign up and pay, they make you fill out the same questions again. After that a talking owl takes over.

Please, please, please stop listening to random engineers who aren't marketing people provide advice about marketing.

Your business needs paying customers.

That being said...the parent comment does make a valid point about this potentially being a dark pattern. I think a reasonable disclosure (small txt on bottom "free trial for 14 days" or something like that) is probably a reasonable way to inform users.

GP is explicitly not interested in giving marketing advice. They're objecting to being tricked and manipulated.

You know not everyone here is an engineer, right? Many marketers, designers, product people, and even engineers who do all of these things well.

You know the parent comment is from an engineer right?

Reminds me of the “brain training” apps that were fire back in the day. They’d fake-configure the program for you as well.

We are still in the process of improving the survey, so your feedback is super valuable. So far, we have been over-indexing on helping our users figure out the severity of their insomnia and their sleep habits so we can create a personalized program, so our survey can be quite lengthy. Will definitely look into making it shorter. We do have pricing information in our FAQ (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) but yes, it's easily missed on the page with other information. We'll look into making it clearer to our users.

You're missing the point - sure a long questionnaire is annoying but the real complaint here is the fact your site's primary CTA is to go straight into a survey that does not mention it will require payment afterwards.

You're effectively holding users (and especially their data) hostage by exploiting sunk cost fallacy, rather than letting the value of your product stand on its own weight.

Here is a recent thread on this exact topic with much more discussion about how user-hostile this is, and how it makes many assume that your primary goal is to collect data to sell rather than to help any individual with any benevolent task.

Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36962502

Thanks for sharing! Will look into how we can make the fact that this is a paid app more apparent from the onset. We do have pricing information on our homepage (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) but I'll be the first to admit that it's not easy to find.

Your pricing is buried inside a collapsed FAQ? I was charitable to you when reading these comments, since I know sales is hard, but this is as shady as I've never seen before. It's a shame, because it casts a shadow on everything else and makes me question whether I should give you credit and really try this...

I don't think you're really hearing the feedback here.

When someone says "you're being shady" the right answer isn't "we'll look into how we can be less shady." The right answer is "oh snap, you're right. Sorry. We'll fix this asap please check back later today."

They are mostly interested in making money, not helping people with insomnia, so shady is fine for that goal.

That is curious, since price is the first thing many people look for. You’d think it would be displayed prominently. The fact it’s not almost makes one wonder if there is something untoward happening.

It costs $63 per month and you need to pay quarterly. I guess that’s why it’s buried.

Nothing shows confidence in your product quite like requiring an extended lock-in, does it?

Wow! Is this mostly meant to be prescribed rather than subscribed to?

the `/faqs` page is not the homepage.

Why is pricing on the `/faqs` page and not it's own page?

Hanlon's razor doesn't apply to YC backed startups. This is shady not sloppy.

Be honest, do the survey answers affect the resulting program? I literally put in random numbers and answers each time and it took me to the same exact payment page.

There's also a "loading" screen that doesn't do anything except spin.

You also throw in random interstitials all over the place making it even slower to onboard.

You use savvyy nocode builder and this "onboarding" looks eerily similar to their "sleep app" template: https://trysavvy.com/example/sleep-reset-assessment.

I see this playbook far too often. I'm sorry, but it sucks.

Be honest with your users. Just provide them with clear info about what your service does and how it does it, and how much it costs, off the get go.

Thank you for the feedback! We'll make information regarding pricing and program clearer to our users.

Regarding your question, we do send the survey results to our backend, and based on that, we 1. generate a sleep report 2. assign you to one of several tracks we have. We also personalize your specific program within the track (e.g. we'll adjust your sleep restriction window based on your sleep efficiency etc).

I don't know if this is voluntary but, personal opinion, not seeing the pricing upfront makes me not willing to start a 20min questionnaire. How do you monetize / plan to monetize this?

Ok read the other comments and it looks like the pricing page comes after you filled the questionnaire.

Thanks for the comment! You can also find our pricing information here: https://stellarsleep.com/faqs

Given all the feedback, we're thinking it might be useful for us to create a separate page just for pricing as well.

Thank you for replying! Will give a look to the pricing. Your app looks cool otherwise and I may be interested as well so that's why I wanted to share my feedback :) Good luck people!

Side note, the question "Can I pay with FSA / HSA" does not unfold on mobile.

Thanks for the heads up! We'll look into this. For now, you can go here for FSA/HSA payment instructions: https://support.stellarsleep.com/portal/en/kb/articles/stell...

Sounded like it would be worth trying. Was hoping while I was answering the questionnaire that it wasn’t leading down the road to an auto-renewing subscription. sigh

How about instead of letting me choose how much I want to pay for the 7 day trial, you let me choose from the outset whether I want to auto-renew.

If you have insomnia, get checked for sleep apnea. I used to sleep more than the recommended 8 hours until I discovered that I was actually running on fumes and adrenalin most of the day and couldn't sleep at night until early in the morning whereupon I overslept. Now, I can fall sleep at a sane hour and sleep the recommended amount of time.

Totally agree with this. Doing a sleep study and getting a CPAP machine, makes a big difference for those with obstructive sleep apnea.

I'm sure you're aware of https://www.sleepio.com (I followed their program a few years back). They use the same (similar?) CBT approach and I do think it helped but was far from a silver bullet.

Does Stellar Sleep delve into sleep hygiene? Are "edge cases" considered e.g. some people report no difference with cutting caffeine (as mentioned) but others cut caffeine and instantly their insomnia is cured and their lives change.

Yes, we're aware of sleepio. Unfortunately, sleepio is only available via their partnership with major employers, so most people in the US will not be able to access their program.

Both Stellar Sleep and Sleepio are based on behavioral psychology. Sleepio is a weekly program (I believe you spend an hour each week). From our experience and also through user interviews, we found that it's easier for patients to follow a daily program (we offer daily bite-sized modules so you don't have to spend more than 5 - 10 minutes a day).

Also good point! We do delve into sleep hygiene - that being said, our target audience is people with chronic insomnia (insomnia 3+ nights per week for 3 months or longer). While common advice such as “avoid caffeine after 4pm”, “limit alcohol in the evening to no more than 2 drinks before 7pm” or “minimize the use of blue-light emitting devices an hour before sleep” are helpful, there is little evidence that sleep hygiene alone is sufficient to treat chronic insomnia.

I'd also add that the big "open secret" in the sleep research community is that yes, CBT for insomnia is a great starting point, but it needs to be followed up with further psychology-based care. Sleepio is a great starting point and Stellar Sleep also delivers CBT for insomnia-based programming initially. The difference is that we then transition into continued psychology-based programming which sustains the results of the initial CBT for insomnia work.

When you say "we" are you commenting as an employee of Stellar or Sleepio?

I still have no clue what a typical day using your app will look like. Yes, you are providing a "How it works" section but it still leaves me clueless about How it really works and no, i'm not gonna sign up to find it out.

Happy to provide more information here.

We start by understanding a person’s immediate sleep-related challenges and providing them with practical strategies for dealing with them. Then, we drill down on the underlying psychological drivers of a person’s chronic insomnia and create a personalized program to resolve those drivers one by one.

Every day, you will go through a set of modules (5 - 10 minutes each day) that teaches you the psychology skills you need to get better sleep. The modules presented will be based on what we think will be most effective for you, given your sleep patterns.

Our modules are often video based (short animated videos featuring our mascot - Merlin the owl) and audio based, and we have interactive modules, text based modules etc. Topics in the first phase of the program include how to deal with a racing mind, cognitive restructuring, techniques for general relaxation, stimulus control and sleep restriction therapy.

You'll also be recording your sleep each day, and this will help us:

+ Further personalize your program

+ Recommend a sleep restriction window for the following week.

Hope this answer your question!

What time of day do you receive the module, and is that based upon your timezone?

What time of day are you recommended to use the module?

Do you have plan for offering regional pricing? After finding the pricing deep inside the knowledge base, I'm shocked at the monthly price which costs 20% of the minimum monthly pay in my area.

Currently, we are not doing regional pricing, but you can pay for our app using your HSA/ FAS through our partnership with Flex: https://withflex.com/partners/stellar-sleep. We also offer financial assistance plan. Check out https://support.stellarsleep.com/portal/en/kb/articles/is-th.... We will respond to you within 1 business day.

TIL about HSA/FAS. Like what the sibling comment said, it's not a thing in my place. Thanks anyway, I'll check out the trial first.

> but you can pay for our app using your HSA/ FAS through our partnership with Flex

Presumably they can't? If they are not in the US..

I checked out the website. You answer a variety of questions and the website tells you "yes, you definitely have insomnia, and we can definitely help you", and then it asks you for your credit card. I've seen that before. What I haven't seen is even the most basic description of HOW it's going to help.

We are still in the process of improving the survey, so your feedback is super valuable. So far, we have been over-indexing on helping our users figure out the severity of their insomnia and their sleep habits so we can create a personalized program.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of information will be helpful for you? We thought of including a flow chart showing what you'll be doing each week (e.g. dealing with a racing mind, cognitive restructuring, stimulus control, sleep restriction etc.) on the program, and also some of the information in https://stellarsleep.com/science. Do you think that will be helpful?

How do I sign up for this and pay? This is exactly what I need at this point in my life.

To sign up, please go to our homepage and complete our sleep quiz. We require you to complete a quiz in order to develop a program that is personalized to our specific sleep needs.

You can see our pricing information here: https://stellarsleep.com/faqs

Well done for launching! I'm just very conscious of over-claiming and pseudoscience in this space...

Is this classed as a medical device / SaMD? Does it require FDA / MHRA approval or CE marking? Why is there information on your website about Fatal Familial Insomnia when it is vanishingly rare and has only been reported a few dozen times worldwide? Are those self-reported improvements in sleep and can you measure more objectively with polysomnography?

In the UK there's an app called Sleepio which is NICE-approved and prescribed to patients - is your app similar? One last question - how did you come up with the pricing ($63 per month)?

In case this is useful for anyone, you can pay for our app using HSA/ FAS through our partnership with Flex: https://withflex.com/partners/stellar-sleep. There is a 7-day trial with the option of canceling anytime within the app itself. We also have a 30-day money-back guarantee, so if you decide at any point within 30 days that the program is not for you, you can get a full refund, no questions asked.

I think I've had chronic insomnia for about 20 years now. I sleep 5 or 6 hours on good nights. Sometimes less. Don't have trouble falling asleep. The prob is waking and tossing and turning. Agree that the problem is probably psychological combined with aging. Since i cant forsake work, computer and cell phone screens for a year on a beach in mexico(which I think would fix the problem) I'll try the app.

Sorry to hear about your insomnia. I know from first-hand experience how chronic insomnia can be debilitating and make one feel incredibly lonely. It might help to know that you're not alone. Over 50% of our users have insomnia for over a year, and many are able to find ways to improve their sleep through our app.

For a while, I just accepted the fact that insomnia is something I've to live with (it's easy to feel that way especially if it has lasted for so long), but that's just not true. There are ways to better cope with your insomnia even if you're not able to resolve it entirely. Give our app a try and let me know if you have any questions.

I quit my tech career to fix my sleep and it mostly worked. I sustain my lifestyle through iOS app revenue, and when I have sleep trouble or wrist pain, I simply rest. I recommend reconsidering your career choices.

For anyone like me who has struggled with insomnia, I have found that "sleep restriction", as used by this and other apps, to be the most impactful thing I have ever done. I've tried every sleep aide, pharmaceutical, and cognitive practice imaginable and nothing can even hold a candle to sleep restriction. I paid for a different app for a personalized schedule but the process is simple. These are the basics:

- Go to bed very late at a time when you can barely keep your eyes open, for me it was 2am. Do normal sleep hygiene things until this time so stay away from screens and stressful stuff. Do this for the same time every night.

- Do not use bed for anything except sleep. We are rewiring our brains so that bed = sleep and that's it. No reading, no screens, nothing except sleep happens in the bed.

- Wake up after ~5 hours with an alarm. This sucks and I hated it but I stuck with it for 2-3 weeks and it shifted my entire existence. My sleep window was 2am-7am.

- The first days will be hard and you may not sleep through that entire window. The important part is to wake up at the prescribed wake up time or whenever you wake naturally (very hard) consistently for a period of several weeks

- Over time, you should be able to sleep through that window. For me, the process of being able to consistently sleep for a scheduled window was enough to prove that there was nothing "wrong" with me as I had told myself for 20+ years.

- Over a longer time, you bring the bedtime up so you get more and more sleep, generally 15-minutes each time.

After 20 years of insomnia, the past year has been the best sleep of my life. I only get ~6-7 hours or so per night but it is deep, restful sleep that is generally uninterrupted if I stick to this regiment. The beginning is not fun but over time I have adjusted to the hours and, most importantly, have outgrown the story and habits that drove my insomnia. For me, I knew how to sleep but I had decades of sleep anxiety and surrounding stress to get past. Being so tired you can do nothing except sleep helps you rewire your association with your bed away from "sleep is stressful" towards "sleep is easy".

I paid for the Sleep Reset app to walk me through everything. Because I paid money for it, I probably had a higher degree of success than if I just Googled stuff and half-assedly tried to incorporate it. For ~$200, the app certainly has high margins and made money off of me but it was the best $200 I ever spent.

I'm glad you found something that works for you! It's easy for someone suffering from chronic insomnia to just accept that there is nothing they can do (especially if they have experienced it for a very long time). It's great (and motivating for many chronic insomniacs out there) that you found a way to resolve/ cope with your insomnia after 20 years. Thanks for sharing your experience!

Curious how much overlap there is with the book "Say Goodnight to Insomnia"? [0]

At a glance it seems quite similar, so I'd love to understand how the app is better than e.g. downloading a cheaper "wellness" app (with meditations, calming music, relaxation techniques, etc) + going through the exercises in the book [0]?

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Say-Good-Night-Insomnia-Drug-Free/dp/...

There is quite a bit of overlap. Our program uses many of the behavioral techniques (CBT-I) mentioned in the book, but we also go beyond just CBT-I to help you figure out the underlying psychological drivers of your chronic insomnia and resolve those drivers one by one.

I wouldn't claim that our app is better than any of the resources you mentioned. The best remedy is what works for you. For some people, it might be reading a book on insomnia, or practicing mindfulness. A lot of this is also influenced by personal preference too (do you prefer reading, or watching a video, or listening to an audio to consume content etc).

Our app resonates with users who prefer shorter and more "bite-sized" content (especially video or audio based) that can be consumed by spending 5-10 minutes a day, but there are also people who prefer receiving more information upfront. Go with what works best for you!

Insomnia.. Oh yeah.. People need to realize that humans itself create bad environment for sleep. Loud cities, loud neighbors, stressfull jobs.

10B ppl, we can make it!

Struggle with insomnia, as do many many manyy people - https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=c....

Will definitely give this a shot, thank you for the great work

I know from personal experience how debilitating it can be to struggle with insomnia. It's one of those conditions that's so easy to hide and hope that you can just "will" it away, which is why people don't talk about it enough. Hope you find our app helpful!

Your tag line is sleep better tonight. So I can’t sleep. I go thru the hoops. Then you want to charge me, for something that may not work?

I would prefer give me something of value - one tip to try tonight. If it works, I’ll be back tomorrow with my credit card.

My sleep doctor prescribed CBT and it was a nightmare. Ended up so sleep deprived that I almost had an accident driving down the freeway. Simply didn’t work. I feel bad for future patients that aren’t receptive to CBT.

I don’t get it. Can you explain does this work and helps me sleep better?

I feel like the various readme and the landing pages do a good job of explaining the CBT-I psychology.

What parts of the learn more sections or pages didn’t make sense to you?

Why is it worth paying 60$+ a month for a 3 month minimum subscription(what's with that anyway..)? You could buy multiple CBT-I books for that.

Incredible just how much of the USA has insomnia - do you have any plans to go global or raise awareness of the problem itself?

What benefits can one perceive in the first 7 days, to make a decision on whether it is worth it or not?

Great question! Our users see a 6 point improvement in ISI (insomnia severity index) on average in the first 7 days, which represent a categorical improvement in insomnia severity e.g. from severe (clinical) insomnia to moderate (clinical) insomnia, or moderate (clinical) insomnia to mild insomnia. ISI continues to improve during the program, and the benefits are sustained after that.

Another important consideration is patient adherence (i.e. how likely someone is going to stay for the program), which is something that many digital health apps (and even in-person therapy) struggle with. A lot of this is influenced by personal preference too (do you prefer reading, or watching a video, or listening to an audio to consume content etc). So you can tell from the first 7 days if our approach resonates with you.

We also have a 30-day moneyback guarantee, so if the program doesn't work for you, we'll be happy to issue a refund.

> tried everything from cutting coffee, blocking blue light, to taking melatonin and antihistamine, but couldn’t find anything that worked

Suggestion from a friend: 1/4 to 1/3 of a liberty cap before going to bed.

From another friend: "the sleep cycle normalized after 2 weeks sleeping in Maui with open window and swimming in the ocean every day. Now I don't need to take melatonin and magnesium"

to me it took quitting coffee. But it took over 200 days to begin to notice. It's not as simple as quitting coffee for a few weeks. and really, 1-2 years.

Godsend.

I imagine like 90% of HN'ers suffer from insomnia.

Why?

Is this like Noom but for sleep?

Thanks Andre!

Edit: removed my initial reactionary negative feedback - it was already said by other comments.

I would just echo what others have said about the long onboarding survey and paywall.

Hope you can continue iterating and you listen to the feedback, both good and bad! Good luck!

I hate this shit.

People making app for serious medical issues and telling people. they be cured. They just need to believe in the founders. believe in the app and then they shall be healed Hallelujah.

It is the app version of snake oil, and tv healing. Keep your arm on the tv right now.

How about we make a surgery app? For a monthly fee it will tell you how to perform safe surgery on your friends and neighbors. Have a side hustle. Avoid huge hospital bills.

Oh we can't do that because it would be dangerous and unethical?

Well the brain is an unknown number of magnitudes more complicated than our physical structure.

The industry producing apps to "fix your brain" in 6 easy installments.

There is a good reason people go to med school and spend a lot of time specializing. There is a good reason for psychologists going to school and specializing. and even then, they have a hard time knowing what to do, because the science is not there yet.

Had you actually been able to to solve the complex collections of disorders and issues that may cause insomnia would you be looking at a Nobel prize.

Not $10 every month on the app store. (or however much it is)

> Not $10 every month on the app store. (or however much it is)

$63 per month with a minimum 3 month subscription... so yeah...

However, if we're being fair "treating" insomnia is not exactly surgery there are clearly "self-help" style approaches and general lifestyle changes which would be helpful for many/most people suffering from it.

I mean that fact that you can't "cure" it 100% for everyone is not a good reason not to try. I don't think the all or nothing approach is very constructive. Helping some people to some extent is still better than nothing (no clue if the app is worth it or not, although given the pricing and the way it's presented, I'm also leaning towards snake oil)

There are "sleep hygiene" changes (as they call it) that are beneficial. They are easy to find for free with a web search: This one the CDC links to: https://sleepeducation.org/healthy-sleep/healthy-sleep-habit...

They are also usually the first recommendations that your primary care physician will offer you.

Paying $189 for them seems excessive. But ok, yeah, the app can present it and help you keep up a new routine.

The main reason for my comment was the way it was presented. As "a cure" for people with chronic insomnia. George had it for 7 years.

By that point most people will be far past such initial recommendations. They are also far past what your primary care physician can help you with. The person then needs to see a sleep disorder specialist.

Relevant quotes from the post: "Insomnia has been a personal struggle for both of us. "George’s insomnia led to him quantifying his sleep for the last 7 years" "I (Ed) suffered from chronic insomnia for over a year and tried everything from cutting coffee, blocking blue light, to taking melatonin and antihistamine, but couldn’t find anything that worked"

I used this app and was kind of skeptical at first about how effective it can be. However, I was surprised to see its immediate value and continued improvement in my sleep. The app does a great job of giving you learning content in digestible pieces. The design is outstanding and makes you want to open the app to get a calm feeling. Overall, super cool concept and a great way to get better sleep.

LOL is no one catching that this is literally a paid schill posted by a brand new account with zero history?

This company is hilarious.