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I often wonder how money is stored.

It can't be just a number on a computer in a bank, right? Otherwise some Russian bank could just increase that number to whatever they like. And say "Look, we own 100 Trillion USD. Now let's go shopping.".

So I guess USD needs to be recognized by the US somehow?

Could the US simply "void" all USD that are owned by Russia?



> It can't be just a number on a computer in a bank, right?

It really is, but to answer your second question, it's important to consider *which* bank. There's reserves (i.e. balances of banks at the Federal Reserve) and bank deposits (which really are just numbers in banks' databases).

Having an account at the former is effectively what makes numbers in the database of the latter "real USD".

> Otherwise some Russian bank could just increase that number to whatever they like. And say "Look, we own 100 Trillion USD. Now let's go shopping.".

They could, but these assets/liabilities would not be backed by any reserves linked to the USD payment rails.

Reserves are theoretically irrelevant (though practically regulated) as far as transfers between accounts of a single bank are concerned. But as soon as a second bank comes into the picture, i.e. for inter-bank transfers communicated via SWIFT or otherwise, all transfers will ultimately be backed by Fed account to Fed account transfers in the background.

> So I guess USD needs to be recognized by the US somehow?

Indirectly so, yes: What makes USD "real" is the ability to transact with the larger ecosystem of US and offshore banks that have a shared agreement on what "real" USD are.

Practically, this means being connected either directly (via a Fed account) or indirectly (via a bank that itself does have a Fed account) to that system.

> Could the US simply "void" all USD that are owned by Russia?

Indirectly, yes: They can force every bank holding USD balances for embargoed beneficiaries to freeze these assets. Failing to comply could, in the absolute worst case, lead to that bank's Fed accounts being frozen as well (which would take away its ability to settle in USD with other banks).


I suppose what OP was arguing is, when bank A transfers to bank B, does bank B check with the Feds that the money from bank A is "real"? And is a transfer from A to B really a transfer from A's account at the Feds to B's?

In that case, why would the US have to act "indirectly", threatening bank A not to work with bank B? They could simply deny any transfers to and from bank B's account at the Feds, which would make any transactions impossible?


> when bank A transfers to bank B, does bank B check with the Feds that the money from bank A is "real"?

Yes, unless the banks have mutual accounts with each other that they can use to settle instead. So, if bank B is accepting to be owed money by bank A for any transfer from A to B, they don't need to settle – but there's practical limits to that, imposed by both risk and regulatory concerns. Eventually, they'll need to settle up if funds flows A -> B and B -> A don't largely cancel each other out.

> And is a transfer from A to B really a transfer from A's account at the Feds to B's?

For wire transfers and ACH, it is.

> They could simply deny any transfers to and from bank B's account at the Feds, which would make any transactions impossible?

Yes – that's in fact exactly what a freeze of that bank's Fed reserves is!


Thanks for clearing this up for me!

> unless the banks have mutual accounts with each other that they can use to settle instead.

So this is just based on trust that the other bank will keep a truthful score of the transfer, and there won't be a dispute at settlement time?

If the banks are often willing to trade with each other "on trust alone" like that, I suppose that shows why the Feds can't always directly block dollar transfers, but have to rely on threats of account freezes.


> So this is just based on trust that the other bank will keep a truthful score of the transfer, and there won't be a dispute at settlement time?

Exactly: Either there is trust (and external settlement is not required), or there isn't, in which case banks will usually only credit incoming transfers to their customers once the underlying funds have settled.

Practically, trust is a spectrum, and banks might only settle once the outstanding balance in either direction has become too large (that's then called "netting").

> If the banks are often willing to trade with each other "on trust alone" like that

Bank balances are ultimately only be useful to their accountholders if they can effect some payment with them. There is therefore also a spectrum of fungibility of USD balances.

If you think about it, what makes USD useful is the fact that they can be used to pay for imports from the largest economy in the world. Only very few US companies would be willing to trade with you when being paid in USD balances at some foreign bank that they can't, as one significant example, pay their taxes with.


A Euro/anywhere bank could be a middle man to a russian bank, and hold USD for them.


Yes, but they could not transfer it to many places for them. Non-widely transferrable USD are worth much less than USD on common payment rails.


> Indirectly, yes: They can force every bank holding USD balances for embargoed beneficiaries to freeze these assets. Failing to comply could, in the absolute worst case, lead to that bank's Fed accounts being frozen as well (which would take away its ability to settle in USD with other banks).

They could also go much further. US has the power to force any bank that wants to transact in USD to freeze all Russian assets no matter the currency.

This is a very big stick.


> US has the power to force any bank that wants to transact in USD to freeze all Russian assets no matter the currency

Ish. In reality, this power is constrained by our courts. Which is why we have the privilege. A foreign person wrongly frozen can take on the U.S. government in court and win.


Isn't it in actual reality just a matter of passing the right set of laws?

"I deem it legal to freeze assets of terrorists."

"I now deem you a terrorist."


You could equally say that in actual reality it's a matter of having enough men with guns. Occasionally the abstractions break down and that's where it all bottoms out.


In reality though if this happens and Europe / China doesn't like it (Europe literally needs Russia oil unless they want civil unrest with $300/barrel crude), compliance with US directives are not guaranteed.

The stick is real, it is very sharp and pointy; but it's a thin and targeted stick. Stab top many people with it, and it'll snap.


Isn't that what blocking them on SWIFT actually is?

Or do they have another way?


No. Swift is "just" a messaging system. No money is transferred over it.

Blocking Swift access makes it very inconvenient for banks to perform international settlement, because banks today rely on automated Swift messages to coordinate such transfers. However, even before Swift, international transfers were possible: by phone or telex. The banks have to find other ways to communicate, which isn't easy in practice, but not impossible. The fact that Russia has its own Swift competitor, to which some international banks might switch over time, would probably help with that.

But by freezing bank accounts at the Fed, the actual settlements - the events at which money actually changes hands - could be prevented in the first place, no matter the way in which banks agreed over those settlements. Switching back to good old telex (or another financial communication network) wouldn't help in such a scenario. Banks would have to fall back to exchanging big suitcases of dollar bills, which obviously wouldn't practically work.

Because no bank would survive this, they would immediately cooperate when confronted with such a threat and freeze any Russian-held funds, even if those funds weren't actually held in USD in the first place and thus would theoretically be unaffected by the Fed account freeze.


> Swift is "just" a messaging system. No money is transferred over it.

I don't really understand this distinction. But before I can ask a question, there are some points about my understanding of how payments work, so that you can verify me:

1. All payments, no matter which payment system, can be performed only between 2 bank accounts. In order to send or receive money I must have an account in a bank.

2. A bank is pretty much defined by regulations it must follow. Following these regulations gives a bank some amount of trust/authority to say that a given person/entity has that much money within this bank. This money don't necessarily have to be backed by anything, so, ultimately, "it's just a number".

3. All transfers in a given currency are directly or indirectly performed via central bank that emits this currency (or FRS in case of USD). This is the ultimate top-level ledger for transfers in this currency.

4. So, ultimately to transfer non-physical assets (i.e. fiat money) 2 authorities for a given currency (i.e. central banks, or banks that follow CB regulations) must communicate one to another that a given number is deducted from account X and added to an account Y. There's nothing more.

So, if money is just a number, "transferring" it is just a message. So why exactly SWIFT is a messaging system that doesn't transfer money, and how money is transferred, then? And what (in general terms) even are these messages SWIFT is needed for, that aren't money transfers?


If someone with an account at bank A transfers some funds to someone at bank B, this transfer can occur by bank A decreasing a number and bank B increasing it. That's "just a message". However, it also is only part of the story. The only reason why banks A and B are able to offer this nice service of increasing some number here and decreasing some other number there is that both of them have an account at a central bank, over which they can eventually settle this transfer (together with a lot of other transfers, of course) amongst each other. Otherwise, bank B would suddenly be in debt with bank A, which is a situation that both of them can only tolerate for a very limited amount of time (and money).

That's why I consider the capability to settle the individual transfers to be more important than the capability to negotiate these transfers, and the time of settlement to be the actual time at which wealth is transferred. Before that moment, the transfer is effectively incomplete, which usually doesn't matter much for smaller sums of money, but in case of large amounts that introduce large imbalances between banks you can be pretty sure the banks will want to settle among each other first before the recipient gets full access to the transferred money.

However, all of this is based on the assumption that Swift is used for inter-bank communication as in "non-central-bank to non-central-bank". I always assumed that central banks would have their own communication channels with the non-central-banks and would not have to use some intermediary like Swift, as they themselves are a central entity able to standardize message formats and such.


Yep – I suspect that when people say "block them from SWIFT", they really do mean "put them on international embargo lists and/or block anybody violating these at the various currency's settlement layers".

But as a short-term measure, revoking SWIFT access is probably also somewhat effective. As you say, setting up alternatives is not impossible, but not easy either.


I am astounded at how much I just learned about banking from you -- Thank you!


With the already agreed sanctions (so not swift, but the ones about transactions in USD and EUR etc) - it was also written that the russian banks have up to May 24 to settle their transactions. Is that the last level of inter-bank settlements that's about? Or does it mean that the sanctions are ineffective until then?


So reading this: Banks are basically a necessary "evil" to make the current money system work. When I read how banks works, their technology, and how money works in general.. It makes me think: Is this really the way we want it to work.

I'm not sure if crypto is currently ready. But one BIG reason for it to succeed, is that the current system is just old... We have all these fintech startups improving money flow, and transfer times, and easy of payment... But it seems like tech build upon tech. centralized startups/companies owning payment systems (Apple Pay, Stripe, Adyen).... Man, i'm going to buy some more ETH :p


See, the thing is that you will need trust at some point. Back in the day you had to trust that your business partner didn't just whip out a sword and kill you to take your money.

Then you had to trust that they didn't hand you false coins. After that came false checks. Nowadays you need to trust that online shops aren't trying to scam you.

Essentially whenever you do business there will be one person that needs to make the first move, crypto or fiat, someone always needs to deliver first. But if these two business partners don't trust one another then they need a third party they can both trust.

In our world these are most often banks or notaries. People that will take money from person A hold it till person B delivers then pass it on. If person B doesn't deliver person A gets their money back, if person A doesn't pay person B doesn't deliver.

Now, crypto is trying to claim that smart contracts will solve this in crypto world but that raises the question of who executes these smart contracts and who feeds them information. After all this once again feeds back into the trust problem.

Essentially you need banks not because they are modern or technologically up to date or fast, but because they are in fact fully capable of clawing money back if the laws allow them to, unlike crypto where your money is secured by math.

Because even if some people don't like it, the chance of the average person being scammed is far higher than your bank or the government misusing the trust you have given them and taking your money.


Well, no: this isn't the way we want it to work. It's how it has to work. Banks aren't just a necessary evil - any functioning financial system needs intermediaries. Furthermore, in all but a small handful of cases, those intermediaries need to be trusted and trust-worthy. Bitcoin, and all other protocols based on Satoshi's design[0], are limited to maintaining a secure ledger of "on-chain assets". Any interaction with the real world still requires a trusted intermediary to feed data back into that ledger; and once you do that the downsides of maintaining a distributed trustless global ledger for the virtual side of those assets becomes apparent.

[0] Including Ethereum.


> Is this really the way we want it to work

Yes. This is not a technology problem. This is how banks have been working for the last 400 years.

You can't get rid of banks because banks are what create the money. The crypto people have a terrible understanding of what money is.


tl;dr, what makes electronic USD "real" is a system of consensus like bitcoin, except it's a node of 1 (the US Fed) with a handful of spokes (banks with Fed accounts) for scaling off that base node.


> I often wonder how money is stored.

The Bank of England published a summary of how modern banks work. See https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m...

> It can't be just a number on a computer in a bank, right?

It can and it is, see the BOE paper.

> So I guess USD needs to be recognized by the US somehow?

This is a complicated question that will start a flamewar, but basically, any bank in the world can create dollars out of thin air given adequate collateral. Read about "Eurodollars".


> This is a complicated question that will start a flamewar, but basically, any bank in the world can create dollars out of thin air given adequate collateral. Read about "Eurodollars".

This is true, but it's actually sort of a specious point. What a eurodollar deposit "really" is, is just a short contract. Your European bank takes your exchange and promises to give you back dollars when you ask for them. That they may not have them right now is just a technical detail. But the value of the dollar is still set by what the market is willing to pay for it. The bank going "short USD" is a risk it takes, not an inflationary pressure per se.

So... sure. Foreign banks can create dollars just like brokerages can "create stock shares"[1]. Except, they really can't. They're just playing accounting tricks.

[1] Or, more relevantly perhaps, how one crypto exchange can create wrapped tokens representing foreign coins. This capability was part of the exploit chain that led to the DeFi hack last month.


Exactly, they don't give you dollars, they give you a dollar denominated liability.


Just to make sure we are speaking the same language: If I have $1 in a checking account in a US bank, do I have one dollar, or do I have a dollar-denominated asset of $1 face value, backed by a dollar-denominated liability of the bank?


Reserve requirements at US banks are regulated by the US government as one of many mechanisms used to control the money supply. So... yes, sure. It's complicated, but a dollar at a US bank is a "dollar", because that's what "dollar" means.

The contention upthread was that foreign banks could do the same thing to print dollars. And, again, it's complicated. They sorta can, but only in the sense of placing a gargantuan short bet on the dollar. (A ton of short selling on a small security can push the price down for the same reason). So no one does that, because no bank wants to play that kind of game (or is allowed: all those large foreign banks are themselves regulated by their own national regimes).


Oh oh, next do the Depository Trust Company and how people don't actually own their stock shares of most public stocks either :)


If you walk into a US bank and deposit $1 cash, they now owe you $1. To what extent they must have ready cash, fed deposits, liquid assets, illiquid assets, etc to back that debt is the subject of bank regulation


It's amazing to watch people who have never really thought about this before realize the entire banking system is built upon a handful of centralized, permissioned databases which can pretty much be turned on/off at will for certain parties by the central banks.

What is even more amazing is watching these same people (no necessarily you OP, but prevailing opinion on HN...) then go on an argue that a permission-less distributed ledger like Bitcoin is a completely unnecessary waste of resources.


>What is even more amazing is watching these same people (no necessarily you OP, but prevailing opinion on HN...) then go on an argue that a permission-less distributed ledger like Bitcoin is a completely unnecessary waste of resources.

Hating the way modern banking works doesn't mean blockchain is a flawless solution. It comes with a ton of its own problems (not the least of which being that it's utterly inscrutable to normies). I personally would prefer we go back to currency backed by gold or some other comparable commodity (silver, etc.)


Sure, I'd agree commodity money is preferable (and certainly trustless in p2p transactions), and in many ways better than blockchain. I just don't see how to map that paradigm onto a world where people who have never met each other regularly transact across continents without introducing some trusted 3rd party. And the moment you add that 3rd party you end up right back where we are now.


How do you transact across continents without a trusted 3rd party, with blockchains? The only transactions you can do trust-less are transactions that happen completely on-chain, i.e. exchanging some cryptocurrency for other cryptocurrency or similar tokens. As soon as you want to exchange currency for good or services, that trusted 3rd party becomes necessary in the exact same way, no matter how "smart" your blockchain money is.


By trust-less I am referring to a trusted 3rd party (e.g bank or escrow service) needed to mediate the transaction between the two parties. Not necessarily a lack of trust between the two parties themselves (obviously it would be foolish to pay someone you didn't trust at all in an irreversible way, but I can order something from Amazon any day with an implicit guarantee I will receive it or a refund, despite not knowing anyone there personally). An if you are referring to the shipping company that is going to move the goods, that would be a separate p2p transaction (and probably insured) between the seller/buyer and the delivery company.

Everyone who transacts in a fiat currency digitally has a defacto third (or more) party in the bank that mediates the transaction, and even non-digital cash transactions inherently include the central issuing bank (who you must trust not to debase the currency...just ask a Turkish citizen how that's going).


So a transaction using cryptocurrency has third parties, who do just the same thing and require trust, but which you don't want to call "defacto" because...?


You describe money as if it’s just numbers being moved around: yes, the technology is just numbers moving around, but money is a social construct not a technology, the use of technology is a very small part of what makes money money.


As someone who finds himself thinking “wtf is money” every decade or so, the most recent book I read on this was pretty good - Money: The Unauthorised Biography by Felix Martin. It’s firmly in the “social construct” camp and makes some good arguments (to my lay mind!). There’s some really interesting stuff about the Fei stones https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones


Honestly curious. What is the dissonance that you see there?

Digital fiat currency is indeed bank databases. Similarly, stock markets and stock ownership are also stored in permissioned databases. Both are highly regulated and enforced by law. For people in countries with a high level of rule-of-law, and a stable financial system, I’d argue that this works reasonably well.

I also think that blockchain and other crypto currencies can be very useful. Especially for people in countries where rule-of-law is not as important and corruption is high.


> For people in countries with a high level of rule-of-law, and a stable financial system, I’d argue that this works reasonably well.

I agree, but that's not always obvious at first glance. For example, I would've said Canada qualifies as a stable rule-of-law country with strong property rights up until a couple weeks ago.


> permission-less distributed ledger like Bitcoin is a completely unnecessary waste of resources.

it certainly is when it immediately de facto centralizes! which is in the event what has happened


I'm not sure how you can say it is de facto centralized. You may have had a decent argument as recently as last summer when most of the mining was done in China. However, we just watched them ban mining there completely, and the network carried on relatively unfazed. Seems pretty distributed to me.


> it immediately de facto centralizes

In what respect? Hash power is well-distributed. Consensus (formal and informal) is working as expected.


This has to be, by many orders of magnitude, the most baller backdrop of any video ever.


I'm interested in a risk assessment and hardware/software standard for acceptable error rate. How much redundancy is in use and at what layers?


This is similar to the "why are banks allowed to print money by issuing loans and I'm not?" confusion that sometimes goes around.

Your internal balances are only good so long as the rest of the system trusts you. Magic up some fake balances and good luck getting the rest of the world to continue to take you seriously. "You want us to believe you've actually got that 100 Trillion? Show us?" How would this Russian bank spend these trillions? They can't cash out, because they don't actually have that much paper USD. Transfer it to another bank somewhere more reputable? How are you going to make those transfers clear?

I invite you to open your own bank and print yourself ten million dollars out of the air. Good luck converting that number to cash or transferring it to anywhere else!


I'm sure you're right in principle but have to point out that ten million dollars is peanuts, people have loaned more than that and not given back.


You mean that "real" banks have issued loans of 10M+ and not gotten repayed by people/companies who went bankrupt or such? Certainly!

Banks do their due diligence for a reason, but they don't always get it right. And a certain amount of "bad loans" is expected anyway. Part of the fees and interest they charge is to cover that.

But that's very different than simply printing yourself 10 million dollars. Or even just ten dollars.

It's also different from you starting a bank and saying you loan me 10 million dollars. I now have a statement saying I have 10M in your bank. I try to take that to a "real" bank to cash out. It's not gonna work.


Unless, it seems, you call them "Tether". Which is one of the reasons why I remain unconvinced that Blockchain _actually_ enables a financial system requiring less trust than the current mainstream financial system.


> So I guess USD needs to be recognized by the US somehow?

You could start here: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/20220224/

H.4.1 is a really useful and important data set. For example, you can see that US Fed is holding T2.7$ worth of mortgage backed securities i.e., it's funding them.

> Could the US simply "void" all USD that are owned by Russia?

Beyond a certain threshold those USDs are typically stored as US Treasury bills because it's too risky to deposit billions of $$ in bank accounts. The risk of bank going under is real at those deposit levels.

For anything more I highly recommend reading up Fed Guy blog [1]. It's one of the best sources of this information I've come across; he's extremely concise, no-jargon and explains the core principles really well.

While at it, take a look at this BIS data[2]. tl;dr Russian residents owe ~B121$ to other countries' banks.

[1] https://fedguy.com

[2] https://stats.bis.org/statx/srs/table/b4?c=RU


> Russian bank could just increase that number to whatever they like.

Money is an IOU from the bank. So that's what all banks do. But they'll need assets on the right side of their balance sheet.


Bit what if they didn't, and just changed some numbers in their database?


Then you have fraud, likely leading to an economic crisis.

Consider the 2007-2008 financial crisis. Abstractly, investors believed that homes had significant value until, one day, society realized the value didn't exist in reality but only "on paper." We know that investment bankers were hiding the problem until the proverbial lid blew.

You might consider that our current financial paradigm has never been tried before in human history. For thousands of years, currency was based upon various measures of value which attempted to be as objective as possible. Semi-rare materials (e.g. gold and silver) and difficult-to-replicate coinage were some examples. The US dollar was decoupled from the gold standard under the Nixon administration. The end result is, one dollar now holds value relative to the amount of dollars in existence. To increase the relative amount of precious metals into the world is relatively difficult (actual physical labor is required), but to increase the total amount of dollars in existence is as simple as updating a database entry.

If financial controls work exceedingly well, the current economic system is viable. We know, however, that they don't.


> We know, however, that they don't.

We know no such thing. The only objective fact is that there have been fewer financial crises since the dollar went off the gold standard than before.

Financial controls don't work perfectly, but having money tied to a commodity is fraught with its own difficulties. It's actually quite handy to have fine-grained control over the money supply that is not coupled to external physical circumstances because then at least we have the option of controlling it to produce better outcomes even if we don't always succeed.


' we have the option of controlling it to produce better outcomes '

Following that logic, every country can simply print fiat money until everyone is rich.


It's true that every country can print as much fiat money as they want. It is obviously not true that this will make everyone rich because money is not wealth. Money is just an accounting system. It is useful to have a money supply that tracks actual wealth because it is useful to have stable prices. It makes planning easier. Fiat money is useful because it allows inflation/defaltion to be controlled by policy rather than the whims of fate. But it's still up to us to choose the right policy.


One dollar now holds value relative to your tax bill. If you're subject to US taxes then you have to hold dollars. The IRS doesn't accept precious metals, and if you fail to pay in dollars then they'll seize your other assets. (Technically the IRS might accept official US minted gold coins at face value but that's not really something that happens in practice.)


> The end result is, one dollar now holds value relative to the amount of dollars in existence.

This idea of commodity money is far detached from how it actually works. Thread has several good links if you want to learn how it actually works.

What is the reason behind so many people believing this? Do they teach it like this at school? (This resurfaces everytime money is discussed here)


Other comments are making comparisons to asset bubbles or governmental money-printing, which is rather different than immediate bald-faced fraud on the part of a single actor.

Do you really think it's that easy? That *nobody else involved in the system ever was like "wait, what if someone tries to defraud us?"? That there aren't various levels of checks and methods to prevent such easy, easy things?

That, say, the FDIC in the US is just telling banks "sure, we'll insure your bank accounts, don't bother sending us verification, we trust you!"

Whenever you hear someone complain about onerous reporting requirements or other such business regulations, remember that those things get put in place to catch shit like this.


Actually the regulators encouraged backdated deposits to allow IndyMac to appear solvent.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=6514493 "The impact of Western Director Dochow's approval to record the capital infusion in the quarter ending March 31, was that IndyMac was able to maintain its 'well-capitalized' status," ...

https://www.cnbc.com/2011/11/23/financial-fingerpointing-tur... ' Even if regulators are involved in wrongdoing, they have some immunity. Internal disciplinary measures are rarely taken against regulators who perform badly in their jobs, say government officials. '


Yeah, right.

Ask anyone in accounting in a large enough corporation how many millions of dollars go unaccounted each quarter.

Ask the Inspector General of the Defense Department how many trillions of dollars are fudged (answer: $2.6 trillion as of 2016).


If anyone suspects that, then everyone will try to withdraw their money from their account and they'd soon get exposed of fraud.


Well, it hasn't happened yet and reality is staring at you in the face

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOGMBASE


Then you have inflation, and rise of prices.


Then the left side and the right side of their balance sheet will not add up to the same value


> But they'll need assets on the right side of their balance sheet.

[citation needed]


https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m...

"Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simultaneously creates a matching deposit in the borrower’s bank account, thereby creating new money."

So on the asset is a loan made by the bank.


What kind of citation are you looking for? That's not a controversial issue, it's just the basic reality of how fractional reserve banking has always worked. I'm sure that was covered in your Econ 101 class so open up your old textbook.


It's mostly just numbers on a computer in a bank. There are regulations concerning what banks can do with those numbers, but it all boils down to people having faith in the system in the end. That's why bank runs can quickly lead to economic disaster.


> That's why bank runs can quickly lead to economic disaster.

That is true, but arguably not a consequence of money being digital, but rather of fractional reserve banking.

Physical vs. digital accounting is largely orthogonal to full/fractional reserve banking.


No that's not how it works. Bank runs are possible even with full reserve banking. If banks make any loans at all then obviously they don't hold enough cash to redeem all depositors. Regardless of reserve ratios, the only way to reliably prevent bank runs is with a central bank that provides liquidity upon request.


> with full reserve banking. If banks make any loans at all

These are contradictory. The banks with full reserve banking can't make loans from easily withdrawable deposits. They can do that only with term deposits that can't be withdrawn for a specific period


> That is true

Is it still true though? The Fed averted this through QE by buying assets of questionable value at the face value from the illiquid banks and providing them with enough cash.. didn't they?


> I often wonder how money is stored.

In a computer account. Here's a 22-second clip[0] from a 60-Minutes interview with a former chair of the Federal Reserve talking about how money is lent to banks. Literally just numbers on a computer.

"...We simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have..."

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiCs_YHlKSI


How do banks do backups of this data?


Some good answers above provide more detail here, but ultimately yes: money, for the most part, really just is a number on a computer.

Here’s a good example: when you borrow $500,000 from the bank, the bank’s funds don’t go down by $500,000. The bank just creates that money out of thin air, by adding to the number in your bank balance. Eventually that number goes down as you repay the loan, so it all washes out in the end (modulo interest, defaults, etc).

As an aside, that’s why low interest rates stimulate the economy: more loans are made, and more money is created, spurring more economic activity.


> when you borrow $500,000 from the bank, the bank’s funds don’t go down by $500,000

While technically true, this is a bit misleading, because if you actually /do/ anything with the $500,000, that does in fact cause the bank's funds (i.e. reserves) to go down.

If you withdraw it in cash, then the bank will have to give you some of the Federal Reserve Notes it has in its vault, and when they request more from the Federal Reserve, their account there will be debited $500,000.

Or if you send it to someone at a different bank, then to settle the transaction your bank's balance at the Federal Reserve (or another intermediary bank) will go down by $500,000, and the other bank's will go up. This tends to average out if both banks are receiving deposits and making loans at equal rates, but if they become imbalanced the bank is at risk of its reserves falling below the requirements, which it must remedy or risk bankruptcy.

You're right that low interest rates make it easier for banks to create money, though, because one option a bank has to remedy low reserves is to borrow them from another bank at an interest rate that the Federal Reserve can influence.


>> If you withdraw it in cash, then the bank will have to give you some of the Federal Reserve Notes it has in its vault

And while that is indeed technically true, it only applies to money withdrawn as banknotes. Given that most of the economy is electronic transactions, that loan is to all extents and purposes real money created by the bank out of thin air (modulo capital requirements to back debt).


I address electronic transfers in the next paragraph. Even if initially transferred only within the bank, it is likely to eventually be transferred to another bank, which requires the bank to transfer corresponding reserves to that other bank.

Only the Federal Reserve can create truly unlimited amounts of money without the risk that customers might request transfers that exhaust their reserves.

Complying with reserve requirements imposed by the Federal Reserve on banks help to mitigate this risk, but they are not the true restriction. Even if the reserve requirement was zero, banks would need to keep some reserves or they would be completely unable to fulfil requests to transfer funds to other banks. And even if a bank exceeded the reserve requirement, for example by keeping 50% reserves rather than 10%, they would be insolvent if customers requested 51% of balances transferred out and were unable to cover it with loans from other banks.


> It can't be just a number on a computer in a bank, right?

It's two numbers in computers. It's a number in the computer of the bank that issued the money, and it's a corresponding number in the computer of whoever is holding that money as an asset.

> Otherwise some Russian bank could just increase that number to whatever they like. And say "Look, we own 100 Trillion USD. Now let's go shopping."

It's not possible for a Russian bank to pretend they're holding more USD assets than they really are. The issuing bank knows how much USD is in Russian bank's deposit account. The Russian bank can issue its own USD liabilities (i.e. deposits) which are IOUs for the USD reserves that the bank holds on the asset side of its balance sheet. If the bank issues too many USD liabilities, they risk suffering a bank run that drains their USD reserves and puts them out of business.

> So I guess USD needs to be recognized by the US somehow?

Not exactly. It's possible to have a USD-denominated deposit account at a bank that h deposits at banks in the US. Most of the USD-denominated instruments in the world are not directly recognized by the US. But the international monetary system is hierarchical. Every USD instrument is an IOU for another USD instrument. If you follow the chain of IOUs, eventually, you'll get to the Fed.


Let's just talk about USD specifically. (Other currencies work pretty similar, just with different central banks.)

The "single source of truth" is the Federal Reserve. Member banks (about 10,000 US domestic banks) can hold reserves directly at the Fed. Any reserve bank can directly transfer Fed reserves to another member bank or to the US Treasury using FedWire. The Fed "creates money" simply by crediting a member bank's reserve.

This is done in two ways, one is by paying interest on reserves. So if you're a member bank holding one million in reserves, the Fed simply bumps your balance up every night to reflect your interest payments. The other is by the Fed conducting "open market operations". When it wants to stimulate the economy by "providing liquidity" the NY Federal Reserve trading desk will buy treasury bonds and pay for them simply by crediting the balance of whichever member bank sold the bonds.

Member banks themselves can "create money" in the form of demand deposits. If you have one million in your checking account at Chase bank, all you really have is a promise by Chase bank to give you or whoever you want to send money to one million dollars. Essentially money is created the same way the Fed creates money, your checking account is nothing more than a credit in Chase's database.

However Chase's ability to create money is highly regulated and constrained. Banks have to conform to strict capital and leverage constraints. The OCC and other banking regulators will require that Chase hold enough assets in high enough quality to cover its deposit "liabilities". Some fraction of those assets will be dollars held as reserves at the Fed. Some will be bonds or loans, i.e. promises by other high-quality actors to pay dollars. Some of those assets could even be risky stocks, low quality bonds, commodities, etc. However the "risk-weighted" leverage ratio quickly scales up with risk.

In exchange for this regulation, deposits held at Chase or other member banks are treated as equivalent to Federal reserve dollars. That's because if for some reason, Chase is unable to pay back its depositors when they demand their money back, the Federal Reserve will "create money" to meet the obligations. This is essentially why bank runs no longer exist in modern banking.

Then there's the concept of "money markets", which is short-duration, high-quality assets that are essentially treated as "money-like". Often this tends to be short-term commercial paper from high-quality corporate issuers. A promise from Apple to pay $1.00 in 30 days is treated as "almost a dollar" by most of the market. In this sense, Apple can also "create money". But it's highly constrained, because it would quickly lose its credit rating or breach covenants in its longer-term bonds if it did so.

Finally there's the concepts of "eurodollar deposits". These are dollar deposits held at non-American banks but denominated in dollars. For example you could hold $1 million dollars at Mitsubishi bank in Japan, and you have a claim against Mitsubishi to pay out dollars whenever you want. Mitsubishi is not an American bank, and therefore is not directly regulated or insured by the Federal reserve. In some sense this makes eurodollars slightly less safe than dollars held at domestic member banks.

That being said Mitsubishi is regulated by Japanese banking regulations and implicitly insured by the BOJ (central bank of Japan). Mitsubishi will also make sure its dollar liabilities are never that large relative to its yen-assets. In the case of Mitsubishi failing, its highly likely the BOJ would bail them out by creating yen in the same way the Fed creates dollars. Some of that yen could be converted to dollars on the open FX market, and make the dollar depositors whole. Hence eurodollars are essentially just as safe as regular dollars as long as they're inside another high-quality banking system.


> In exchange for this regulation, deposits held at Chase or other member banks are treated as equivalent to Federal reserve dollars. That's because if for some reason, Chase is unable to pay back its depositors when they demand their money back, the Federal Reserve will "create money" to meet the obligations. This is essentially why bank runs no longer exist in modern banking.

This is not exactly true. Chase, like many other US banks, is regulated by the Fed, and deposits at Chase are insured by the FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation). If Chase becomes insolvent, the FDIC will take over, pay depositors up to the FDIC insured maximum, and liquidate any Chase assets. The Fed is not required to do anything in such a situation.

The Fed may choose to conjure up some new money and loan that new money to Chase, and as Chase is a systemically important bank, the Fed might well do that before the FDIC steps in, but they are not required to.


I have been learning (via books, podcasts, coursera, etc.) about what money is and how it’s created, both domestically and internationally, both in commercial banks and central banks; and let me just say this is a superb summary of all of that. Bravo!


USD are ultimately bearer notes, we've just built a bunch of trust-based infrastructure to enable transactions without moving physical currency.

The key feature of this system (and what everyone is ignoring) is bank accounts that x/German bank has at y/Russia bank (this is also the actual means of transaction for SWIFT).

So in your example, 'y bank erroneously says we have $100tn' would actually just mean 'y bank is willing to credit the account of x bank by $100tn.'

If x bank then tried to pay y bank for a separate transaction with those fake $, then y bank is the loser anyway.

EDIT: Put alternatively, 'making up' USD is a near equivalent to making a loan, which is sort of the core thing a bank does anyway.


> I often wonder how money is stored. It can't be just a number on a computer in a bank, right? Otherwise some Russian bank could just increase that number to whatever they like. And say "Look, we own 100 Trillion USD.

A bank could easily create fake money into its own accounts, but it would have trouble transferring that money over to other banks. I wrote extensively about this topic here: https://www.attejuvonen.fi/money-out-of-thin-air/


> A bank could easily create fake money into its own accounts, but it would have trouble transferring that money over to other banks.

In fact, isn't that indistinguishable (mathematically) from paying interest? The bank's internal accounts all go from X to Y. In theory, the bank should made more money that that in total, so at any given point the sum of all accounts is less than the banks money and accounts recieveable (usually via loans). And the bank can provide that money to other people if needed. But if a bank paid 1000% APR on savings accounts, all that would happen is the bank goes belly up and a lot of those accounts won't be worth the numbers they claim to have.


They can "print" as many USD as they want in-house. But in order to process transactions abroad, they need a US bank account. They can't print money in that.

The US sanctions (freezing their US assets) has more effect, in that regard, than a SWIFT blockade. The US seems to be the interested party in this war, and Germany is much less enthusiastic about it. Remember, SWIFT is a Belgium company and the US has been hostile to European financial institutions lately.


Within the US banking system, all of that is, for the most part, kept in line with the Federal Reserve System and other regulatory apparatuses to keep everybody honest. Outside of the US, you run into so-called "eurodollars" (unrelated to the Euro currency) which is a complete mess of intertwined financial systems from across the planet that a lot of people smarter than me pin on being the cause of the European debt crisis.


As far as I know they really are just numbers in databases, but if it's foreign currency, they can't just magic them out of the DBA's fingers. There probably are ledgers that have to agree with each other, e.g. if a Russian bank claimed it had those 100 Trillion dollars from a Cypriot bank, then the Cypriot bank would have to confirm it gave them that much, and then show everyone the source of that money.

Which does make one wonder how easy it'd be for your trick to work.

North Korea is a major printer of fake $100 bills, a piece of paper that's actually worthless but others are willing to trade $100 worth of goods and services, or exchange for a bank transfer. Until a bill is found to be fake and destroyed, I guess there really is $100 more in circulation, and when the last person found out the note is fake, in effect NK has robbed them out of $100.


There was a huge company in china I think, taking loans by using gold bars as collateral.. for years, turned out they weren't gold


Numbers on a computer paired with account balancing/settlement protocols, one example being: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostro_and_vostro_accounts

When people talk about the manual inefficiencies of finance, it's referring to all this happening in the backend behind the abstraction of quick/automated digital payments in fiat currency. It gets especially complex in international finance, hence SWIFT etc.


Well, it's a number in a ledger system somewhere (e.g. mainframe system, Oracle database, or what have you), with a lot of auditing, reporting, and procedures around changing that number. (Though, having an internal API to instantly get a new bank account number always seemed kinda funny to me).

Slightly related, I'd have to find it again, but I recall there was at some point an assembly level hack on some Oracle database holding core banking in one country.


They do have physical cash reserves in central banks.


Which could be revoked by printing new money with a new design and giving them only to the friendly parties in replacement of the old ones. It's routinely done (Euro is on its second design) and old banknotes and coins are no more valid after some years (the first series of Euros doesn't have an end of life yet.)


Yes, the design is routinely changed to make the currencies more safe against falsification. And the old currency is often taken out of circulation simply by wear and tear. But it is the sign of a stable economy that legal tender does not have an expiration date.

"Note that it is U.S. government policy that all designs of Federal Reserve notes remain legal tender, or legally valid for payments, regardless of when they were issued. This policy includes all denominations of Federal Reserve notes, from 1914 to present as per 31 U.S.C. § 5103." https://www.uscurrency.gov/acceptance-and-use-older-design-f...

Despite not being legal tender anymore, the Deutsche Bundesbank changes your DM notes, if they are after issued after 1948 (https://www.bundesbank.de/en/tasks/cash-management/dm-bankno...). The currency has been introduced in 1948.

If you feel inclined to do so, you can spend a 1 Yen note from 1885 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknotes_of_the_Japanese_yen

So, inflation and wear and tear takes old notes out of circulation rather than expiry.


not only are first series euros still valid, but you can still exchange pre-Euro currencies for the original rate.

The purpose of the new series is just to keep up with counterfeit money, to include newer security measures.

But yes, countries in the world have revoked currencies from time to time.


No, you can't. They were only valid for 20 years, and 20 years have passed since 2002.


Shops aren't required to take the old local currencies anymore, but they can still be swapped.

Here for instances the information if the German Bundesbank, where you can still swap with the official rate of 1.95583 DM/€. https://www.bundesbank.de/de/aufgaben/bargeld/dm-banknoten-u... (Currently there is a restriction of in person service due to corona, but if you trust mail it works, else you have to wait for that Corona restriction to be lifted)

That exchange works without limits or anything.


> They were only valid for 20 years, and 20 years have passed since 2002.

I'm trying to search for this, but I can't find anything about a 20 year validity.


A notable anecdote is the Northern Bank robbery of 2004, when (presumably IRA) robbers stole 26 million UK pounds from the biggest Belfast branch of the Northern Bank, which, like other private banks in Northern Ireland and Scotland, issued its own banknotes. They held a manager's family at gunpoint during the action.

This total sum seemed to be far beyond the robbers' actual intentions, and the Northern Bank quickly issued a new banknote design, offering free exchanges for anyone with the old one.

Of course the robbed money had serial numbers, so it's now generally believed the IRA just burned most of the stolen cash.


Which would significantly devalue the currency because you'd hedge your bets against not becoming unfavourable to whichever regime controls its issuance.


> Otherwise some Russian bank could just increase that number to whatever they like. And say "Look, we own 100 Trillion USD. Now let's go shopping."

Yeah, they can, and do. This is what Eurodollars are. And why the World is continually on the brink of financial collapse whenever Dollars get too scarce.


Yes.

It's a distributed shared ledger.

If this hypothetical Russian bank attempts to add fraud to the ledger, it will cause a fork.


Shared with whom? The Federal Reserve?


I know nothing but instead of one number, think transaction.

To fake money you need to forge transaction with input from somewhere, this can be checked.


Is there a book and/or more detailed resource (if entertaining too-- that's an icing...) anyone could share?


> It can't be just a number on a computer in a bank, right?

And yet people question the utility of a decentralized, trustless, public ledger -- ie. blockchain.


What is the utility? Sure it makes money laundering and buying illegal goods slightly easier than dealing in cash but otherwise what's the point?


In part, one of the points is to disallow a country from forcing bank depositor bail-ins. Like 2013 in Cyprus. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/everyth...

The country north of USA targeted a certain group and took their funds earlier this month. https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2022/02/...


Decentralized consensus & trust doesn't rely on banks and all the associated cost, complexity, obscurity, and gatekeeping that comes with them. With crypto: "Banks" can't unilaterally or fraudulently print more money, settlement is much faster & public / atomic, APIs are through transparent smart contracts rather than semi-structured SWIFT messages, and no need to rely on trust that funds are real compared to (say) Eurodollar derivatives -- i.e. many of the legacy hacks that others are talking about in this thread.


Which is not just a number on a computer, right?


ITs a number of lots of computers that use crypto algorithms to decide what the True ledger is.. So it cant be edited like a row in a DB can. But yes. you're right.


That's right. Bitcoin is represented via 10-minute sequential hashed blocks. You can't forge that currency without re-doing 13 years of computing work.


Unfortunately many won't until they find themselves in a circumstance where decentralization is of vital importance. At which point it may be too late.




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