My mother in law is currently $150,000+ deep on a Facebook romance scam. I believe she's about to send him another $200k or so when her house is sold. Instead of living out her retirement in relative comfort, she will be scraping by on social security. Adult services can't help, because moonshot-level stupidity is not a mental disorder. She can't live with us, as she can no longer be trusted. She can't live on her own, as she obviously doesn't understand how fixed income works. It's a very strange situation to be in, having a parent desperately trying to abandon you as an adult, basically dying without being dead.
I don't know how these people justify it to themselves. They have taken 100% of her money, plus a unknown amount of debt (I've found $100k in loans so far). My mother-in-law is not 'going to be okay'. To be honest, once she figures out that there isn't $3.5MM in the Bank of Israel, she's probably going to look for the quick exit.
At the moment, I'm afraid I'm unable to muster the empathy necessary to understand how you could even begin to help the scammer.
Reading through your comments, I think there's really only two resolutions to this situation. The first is that your mother in law will run out of funds, and die penniless. From what you say, that seems to be where this is heading. However, the only other resolution I can see is that she realizes on her own what is happening. You can lead her to the water, but you can't make her drink it. Realistically, I see that happening in only one of two ways. Option one is that he admits to it being a scam, and cuts contact himself (or gets arrested for it). I don't think that's likely. However, option two is, as others have said, she could try to plan a surprise (or even a non-surprise) visit. If you propose this, I would recommend you do so in a positive light - don't say anything along the lines of "well, if he's real, he should want to meet, right?". Rather, phrase it as the next logical step. It only makes sense that two lovebirds should meet, after all, so she should accept it pretty readily, if you propose it as what's the next best step for their relationship.
The meet solution doesn't always work. My father has met a woman whom his scammer claims to be twice. I'm quite sure it's a man behind the emails and this woman has been coerced into meeting him.
When my elderly father was becoming careless with his money and giving it away to anyone he perceived to be in "need" ($1,000 or $10,000 at a time), we managed to convince him to give my brother power of attorney - ostensibly to make health care decisions, but in reality, the family moved his funds to a new account that dad didn't know about.
This was likely illegal as it was done without his knowledge, but it proved invaluable as it let us afford expensive home health care in the last few years of his life and avoided the need to move him to an assisted living facility (which he staunchly refused to do).
It took all of his retirement savings and most of the equity in his house to pay for it.
If he'd continued giving away all of his money, as his health declined, he would have had to be moved to a state subsidized care facility when it got to the point that he needed more care than family members could give him at home.
There is a point in life when like it or not, switching roles with our parents is the right thing to do. The hardest part is accepting that this is necessary.
There's an interesting myth that Joseph Campbell explained: A Victorian-era dinner table. Everyone dressed up to the nines, about to start a civilized dinner. When the course is served, you realize they were eating their children.
Sounds gruesome if you take it literally. Taking it mythically, though, the Father eats the Son, meaning the child becomes the adult.
Roles and life is not forever. There is a natural cycle to things, from birth to death, from one generation to the next. In this case, in switching roles, you truly become the adult, and leave behind the last remanent of childhood.
And when you grow old enough, it will be your turn, just as it will be for me.
Perhaps, but I like to think that we made the right decision by saving enough of his own money that he could live out his last years in the comfortable surroundings of home while receiving the one-on-one care he needed to remain (relatively) comfortable. We spent his money on him rather than strangers.
I'm comfortable with the decision and feel that we as a family made the right decision for him and it's hard to say it was "stealing" when the money was ultimately used for his own needs. It was a gamble, he could have passed away right after we protected his funds, then the money wouldn't have been spent on him, but that didn't happen.
Probably not illegal, you are required to act "in the best interests" of the person. From experience with another family member who gave an outsider POA, even malicious POA actions are very difficult to attempt to prosecute.
Naive. There is no malice here aside from the one you project. Why are you conflating legality with morality? The father is clearly self destructive and going through legal ramifications to prove it does not serve anyone but the government, or one's self to cover their ass. Who cares if it's a father, mother, grandfather, boss, elderly person you care for, sister or other relation. That has little to no bearing on how one treats self destructive behavior.
Letting him have his money because he's your 'father' is no different an argument than letting X do Y because he's Z relation. It's a piss poor argument and doesn't hold.
"I'll let my alcoholic father drink some more because he's my father, and if I take away his drinks, well that'd be indefensible because I'd be stealing! He should be allowed to drink however much he wants. If I want to take his alcohol away I need a court order to prove that this is a morally acceptable act, because moral authority resides with the government! In fact, I'm worse than the punks around the corner who regularly steal alcohol from under his nose because they are unrelated despite crappy intentions, whereas my good intentions for his health and my relation as his son and son's should pay deference to their elders makes my act oh so terrible. " /sarcasm
At the time, his doctor and attorney said that while his behavior may have been out of character, it was not egregious enough to get a court order declaring him mentally incompetent. One of those professionals recommended (completely off the record and in literally whispered voice) the route that we followed.
So he was not mentally incompetent, and you illegally took all his money, and you still think this is defensible?
I'll never understand you people, thinking you have the right to touch other's property and decide their lives, because you think you know better than them. (and then collectively downvoting me to hell because I dare to defend the right to private property of mentally competent people and condemning theft)
It's hard to know the full truth from a truncated post on the internet with limited other context, but it's advisable to take it as it is and not project so much of your own opinion on it.
It's impossible to know the trust-dynamics in this family.
When I was a young child, my mother would regularly take money which was given to me as gifts from relatives and I would never see it again. I have full faith that whatever she did with the money was spent in more productive ways than I ever could, despite that being theft by your interpretation.
Going up this thread, the topic is that at some point the parent-child dynamic fully-reverses. Now the parent is less responsible than the child and the child may or may not need to exercise some authority in the parent's best interest.
The definitions of when this dynamic should reverse, of what "best interest" is, of what "responsible" means are all subjective but much of our world is. I personally put faith in my ability to judge people, and therefore by extension, put faith in my friends and family to generally help and intervene in my best interests when the time is necessary - I would prefer this every time over having some legal intervention and hope that it never has to come to this in my own case.
You seem to be confusing legality with ethics, or perhaps morality.
But in any case, since you're convinced he was fully mentally competent, then what was illegal? He must have fully understood that the power of attorney paperwork he signed was transferring full financial control. And it'd be hard to argue that the money was not managed in his best interests.
So if a fully competent adult willingly signs away financial decisions for his money, and those decisions are made, what problem do you have with it? After all, it was his decision to sign the paperwork, if a grown man wants to hand over financial control to someone else, why should anyone stand in his way? Just like in your scenario, if a grown man wants to hand over his life savings to anyone that can tell a sad story, why should anyone stand in his way?
Regardless of what arguments were made to persuade him that signing the paperwork was a good idea, the details were all clearly spelled out in the paperwork.
I'm here to say that you're not alone even when downvoted.
My grand-uncle (brother of grandmother) was always 'strange' for all my family, for the entire life, because he had some ideas unavailable to mere mortals that live their cooking-eating-relaxing lives. But when we spoke in his room full of books and maps, I was surprised how many things he knew and did. He spoke on 6 (iirc) languages and traveled a lot on ex-ussr territory. In last years he suffered a stroke and became helpless for some time and cannot speak with usual speed. Ofc family members took care of him, but now that they are stronger and faster thinking, they can laugh on his intents and not take his wishes seriously, saying he is dumb. It's all about cooking-eating now. Though recently one day he just went to train station, bought a ticket a met his friend in other city (800km). He returned succesfully. He is not an idiot, I visited him after disease and he is still my grand-uncle, the same mindset, just very slow speaking and thinking. Others don't give a fck. No, they treat him with care, but never seriously. That's hell.
Now, dear reader (not to kahrkunne, he already knows it), after you read that, I beg you, please stop supporting that awful attitude to a human being* who lived his life and now wants to spend his worth as he wants. Do not put your nose into his business, because there is a chance that your comfortable-cooking-eating mind just cannot understand what life is about.
Parent poster needs to be very careful of this. One my friends mom had this done to take out car loans/cellular contracts because her credit was crap. Ended up defaulting and ruining his credit, and had his car repossessed. It takes years to rebuild credit and he got stuck with crazy rates for his next car loan (will likely pay 2x-3x worth of car). He refuses to have his mother arrested/report it as fraud to settle any of the previous debt, cause family.
For others who are concerned about this range of problems, consider the following issue carefully: elderly parents who for whatever reason compromise their financial and/or physical health are placing a direct burden on you. Although their debts do not transfer to you, you may very well be on the hook due to familial obligations. E.g. your MIL gives up all of her assets to a fraudster. You cannot bear to see her homeless - so you step in financially. Her actions are now reducing your wealth and quality of life.
One solution to this is to anticipate and discuss issues well before they arise. Transfer assets to trusts for grandchildren. Create living trusts where a child is a trustee. Watch your parents' financial accounts. Talk to them about common scams [Nigerian/IRS/Gift card/Email]. Train them to always confirm with a family member before transferring money anywhere.
There is also the option of pursuing Guardianship and Conservatorship should that become necessary.
I wrote above about the myths (as in folklore, ancestor wisdom, not "myth" to mean something is superstitious to be dismissed with prejudice) on role reversals. So I get it. Setting up trust funds and other legal instruments is sensible, and it is what I'm planning with my children.
On the flip side, I grew up in a Taiwanese household in America.
Culturally, such a thing is not considered a burden, and is part of the continuity of lineage.
What's fascinating for me is that:
(1) There is an assumed incompetency for the elderly
(2) Deeper still, seems to me a lot of people in America has trouble with death and dying.
Several years ago, my father died of lung cancer. I only got to visit him once, for a week. We arranged for a limited power of attorney to try to get the finances in shape, but I wasn't able to accomplish everything he wished for me. He wanted to make sure I had a legacy from him. I wasn't able to visit him one more time to tell him what his real legacy he left behind was.
My sister is an MD, and arranged for an in-home care. She financially took care of my parents even before my dad died -- bought a car for him to drive, bought a fridge for my mom to replace that crusty old thing, paying gas bill because my mother insists on keeping the house at 50F to save on money.
I don't think either my sister or I consider that heroic. It's just the thing to do.
Why don't you submit this as a blog post or pitch it to a news agency as an ongoing reality news story? It is quite detailed, informative and could help prevent future scams.
You (and involuntarily your step mother) would be doing the public a service and all this would not be for naught.
Is the scammer in the US our outside of it?
If he is in the US, can you press charges?
If he is outside of the US, can she articulate the wedding plans in more detail? Has she looked into immigration law and things like that? Does she have a passport? Have they met? If not, how does she intend on meeting him? Which country are they going to get married in - and will the marriage be legal both places? I mean, I met my spouse over the internet (non-scammy) and the details really are somewhat of a pain, but was worth it for us... and we met a few times before marriage.
The gist being more that thinking realistically might help snap her out of it some.
If she comes around, are there laws that help victims of scammers that would allow for things like debt relief?
Not sure where he is located. She says that she met him for dinner twice in one week. At that point, I think she had given him $90k, so even if he was not local, the incentive to fly out for a week would be pretty high. As for plans, they are characteristically nebulous and not well thought-out.
I don't think 'thinking realistically' is going to help. When his VoIP number gets shut down, he messages her and says he got a new number "because his old phone got smashed". When I point out that you don't get a new number when your phone breaks, she shrugs. I showed her an outline of the scam and it matched her situation exactly. I showed her news articles (like this one), I pointed out obvious lies. I wish I could reason my way out of this, but I don't think that's the case.
EDIT: as for laws that help people out -> Not that I know of. You can consolidate accrued debt, but that's it.
Some of the questions are truly more from someone with experience doing the non-scammy version of 'online dating then marrying' thing. Was more thinking perhaps these sorts of questions might at least get her mind going in the right direction or make things over more quickly. I wound up switching countries, though, so the questions reflect that.
The whole situation really sucks, and I hope she finds her way out. Must be really difficult watching the whole thing.
The first day he messaged her, we told her it was a scam to take window's money. Four months later, when we discovered she had been talking to him in the intervening months, we showed her a few websites that detail exactly how the romance scam works (matching her situation exactly). Last weekend, when we found out all of her money was gone, we had the police and adult protective services come out and tell her point blank that she was being scammed.
She listens, agrees, and then sends him more money.
There's an interesting concept I read about, how members of doomsday cults tend to believe MORE strongly after the doomsday date passes and everything is shown to be false.
It's something about cognitive dissonance.
I wonder if there is a known way to convince someone who is in this state. Cult debunkers and such might have thoughts?
William Miller predicted Jesus' return in the year 1843. When that didn't happen, he adjusted his calculations to mean March 21, 1844. When that failed, it became October 22, 1844. He kept modifying his prediction whenever it failed. You'd think being constantly proven wrong would make people stop believing him.
That's how the Seventh-day Adventist Church was started. A church that today has more than 18 million members.
You can't reason people out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
Once the snowball starts rolling, the later generations don't care much for the ridiculousness founding myths. It just becomes a traditional culture. Same for all religions, and heck, even nations
Whoever wrote the texts in the New Testament was clever enough to specify it vaguely. Short, for god, can be very long for you, mere mortal. Of course, there slipped an error in some of those texts where Jesus promised that this "short" means "within the lifetime" of those who he was speaking to. But, again, the Bible is so full of much more blatant inconsistencies that this got drowned down below. The believers don't mind, though...
The workaround for that "lifetime" bit is the claim that one or more of the people present were allowed to live forever. There is no end to the layers of explanations.
Its that part that gives meaning to meaningless life's. You are not just somewhere in the middle - another layer in the boneyard, you are the last generation. Being special.
Who knows. It's hard to tell at a 2000 year remove, when it's known that various scriptures have been heavily edited, redacted, etc. Mostly it seems like he was an early version of "Reform" Judaism that turned into a cult.
Beyond that, it's the entire history of the document, with the first 400 or so years being particularly amusing. To be clear, it's not like the same isn't true for other scriptures. You know that lovely story about Moses' birth? Just a ripoff of Sargon of Akkad's origin story, which was almost certainly not original.
SDA here -- that's partially true, but at some point he did realize there was no actual prediction in scripture about a specific date for the second coming. The church has made no such claims since the 19th century.
Or get her to start sending money to a different account, one registered in her name.
Aside from the fact that you're impersonating someone, what would the legal ramifications be of "stealing" from someone only to deposit the money in an account they nominally control, but aren't aware of?
Well, prostitution is physically sexual. So it's more like someone who gets addicted to camgirls. However those situations are mutually honest transactions. In this case she's being deceived and lacks the strength of character or mental stability to fully realize that or cope with it. I do agree that she's probably starved for affection.
Frankly, an escort or camgirl habit could be cheaper.
> I do agree that she's probably starved for affection.
This. And I suspect she's paying for the appearance of being treated seriously and having her emotions treated seriously, which OP clearly fails to deliver by arguing that she's wrong. I don't have many constructive ideas what to do, but don't repeat things that have never worked in the past and pay attention to her needs, not yours, might be a good starting point.
This line of reasoning is repeated in every single thread about the romance scams, and it's enraging.
You have no idea what the situation is. This isn't some old lady we stuffed in an apartment and ignored on the other side of the city. My wife talks to her every day and we see her in person 4-5 times a week. She comes over for dinner every single weekend. She was treated seriously, right up until the point that she lost her life savings and started laundering money.
My armchair speculation, based on interactions with some genuine freaks, is that she secretly is shit scared of making a fool of herself. In front of you, in front of others, in front of herself. And I really mean scared - she doesn't talk about it to anyone, doesn't even think about it, just avoids this issue altogether. Every possible action, every idea which leads to thoughts of failure is rejected.
Remember it's not only quarter million bucks, but also her romantic feelings and her faith in this scammer and people in general. And her judgment and common sense.
So by some stupid fluke she took this risk and now she will do everything to make it work and prove she's right. The scammer offers her a path forward by promising happiness ever after, you guys don't because you keep telling her she will fail. This is roughly what I meant by "appearance of being treated seriously".
Probably she had never been that much of a fool, maybe she heard people laughing at others who had, it's entirely possible that it just doesn't occur to her that anyone could be understood and respected after such a spectacular failure. Especially if all the way along everybody was telling her she's wrong. Now if she fails she expects to be alone with it and have no one to understand her. So she can't afford her marriage plan to fail and will systematically disregard all of your advice which would kill this plan.
So what can you do? Don't listen to me, I may be totally off the mark. Don't care too much about her words, don't argue, instead pay close attention to her emotions. BTW, don't expect her to acknowledge them verbally if you catch her hiding them, it's going nowhere. Figure out what she wants, what gives her hope, what makes her anxious (probably most of the things you've been doing so far). Let her talk to heart's content about her plans regarding this scumbag and don't distance yourself from them (they are bogus anyway), let her figure it out on her own. She already has all the data to decide, but refuses to think about it. Don't treat her like a child by repeating arguments she could already recite from memory or expecting her to say one thing or another. It's her internal thoughts that really matter and you know none of it.
Think. Get help from a pro psychologist if you don't trust Internet smart-asses. Disregard anything that doesn't apply, it's all based on my observations.
I assume that was written by a secondary account from someone here. It seems to be a common way around the HN demands for civility... :-(
Regarding the victim, my guess would be on early stages of dementia and/or emotional trauma after becoming a widow.
But if I would discuss this with a victim, I would try bringing up the psychology of a scammer. First in general terms, like the Nigeria letters, then the specifics about romance.
To really hurt someone this bad is not far from the level physical torture. It is not easy for normal people to live with the self image of destroying an innocent person's life in that way. So the perpetrators of such horrible acts have to despise and blame the victim. (This is what scare me about hateful political idealists, by the way, they tend to think people contradicting them are evil. Not an American, so this was not about the election.)
So scammers and criminals really hate and despise the victim.
(This scammer wasn't someone desperate or really poor, that is partly another discussion.)
Which gets me back to the what I comment on -- "hilop" could probably get a career in scamming, he has the right attitude to other people.
The post seemed pretty civil to me, just straight to the point. Everyone else is trying to solve the problem by banging a hammer into the nail more - maybe THIS way will help you show her it's a scam.
In my opinion, it's worth considering that she is aware(at least on some level) that this is a scam, and she just doesn't care, because she's too traumatized, because she longs for companionship, or whatever else reason. It's impossible to know without having a deep insight into michael_h's life, but it's worth considering.
Interesting point on the psychology of "bad" people. Could this logic relation be inverted? If you see humans as evil, you are more likely to be a criminal or evil-doer?
Thus Pessimism is the first stage of psychopathy?
I weep for the species.
Also weeping for science.
I didn't study psychology, but from reading a bit and seeing people over the years -- I think there is a common thread with a need for perpetrators to dehumanize their victims.
About being depressed over humanity:
Compare clan societies with modern welfare states. The genes are about the same, so humans are really flexible from cultural programming. Just think about how to organize societies to make for nice places and nice people.
The point is -- don't weep for humanity any more than you would weep for cameras, because they might also be used to make bad art. Instead, wonder how to improve art education.
Good lord, just log in to her facebook and block the dude... better yet, change her email address for the account and then the password so she can't reset her password.
Done, done, and done. That was the first thing we did. Facebook was only the initial mode of communication - now they communicate by text, which I can't control.
Assuming her phone is configured to cloak the number in favor of the name, maybe you could grab her phone when she's asleep and swap the phone number for the scammer's contact with the number of your brand new burner phone from which you will impersonate the scammer from now on.
You could also record a video on your own phone as you swipe down through the scammer's texts as a crude way to archive them to study later so you get the impersonation right.
We can take over her finances if she is declared mentally incompetent. She's not mentally incompetent - she understands everything, but she just disagrees with the crucial bit: that the dude doesn't love her and is scamming her. As the judge told us yesterday: we are walking a fine line, taking over another person's autonomy, but it's not illegal to fall in love and do colossally stupid things.
I guess the jurisdiction depends. In the UK you'd stand a very good chance of intervening. Indeed oddly enough there was an article about just this yesterday in the UK, i'll see if I can dig it out
If signed Power of Attorney paperwork exists already, the Court of Protection will grant it unless another family member objects.
You can literally buy the paperwork in supermarkets. Get it signed by the donor and witnessed by anyone at all, and you're set.
If there is no signed Power of Attorney paperwork, you have to persuade the Court that the person is no longer mentally competent to look after their own affairs.
Handing all of their money to a scammer counts as evidence towards that. But it's not absolutely guaranteed. There would probably be lawyers involved, and the Grant of PoA would be subject to messy and potentially expensive oversight by the Court.
Basically it's a good idea to get the paperwork ready well ahead of time, so you're not in a situation where you have to apply for a grant against a very confused person's wishes.
(read to the end, I am not making the analogy you think.)
In the country where I was born, in my personal opinion (so this is not a neutral comment) startups are considered scams. Actually a few people elsewhere have expressed similar opinions. So, when you and an "online friend" get together and spend your own time and money, they consider it a scam. Like, if you are working with/for someone, they should be paying you! No concept of equity etc.
Now as we know, many stqrtups coasted by on "binders full of credit cards", were colossal risks. Adults have the right to do that.
Let's say someone tried to "get through to me" that there is NO SUCH THING AS SUCCESSFULLY RAISING MONEY OR A SUCCESSFUL EXIT. The problem is, they're wrong. There is such a thing.
So when you look at your mother's case - she disagrees with you. You are saying "this man is just lying to her" but she says, "no, no".
Well, ask her: does he talk about meeting her? Does he make plans to meet her? (I hope so.)
Have her plan a surprise trip to see him. It doesn't take much money to fly anywhere in the world.
If he is a scammer he will not want to see her under any circumstances. That will tell her all she needs to know.
What I mean is that you have to make her do something that is a differential between the two possibilities.
I'm not sure about the start-up analogy here, but it seems a good idea to me to encourage your mother-in-law to pay a visit to her supposed romantic interest.
What I mean by the analogy is that people outside of the startup can have the same feeling about the startup entrepreneur (e.g. thinking they've been mired up in a scam.) the difference is there isn't one in the startup case.
So do something - like visit the love interest - that differentiates between these cases.
Scammers can be very persuasive in person, so it's not a given that the scammer will ignore her.
I know someone in a similar situation. She's been abroad to see her "love" in Egypt regularly, and he's very attentive when she's there.
Of course they're planning to get married.
Of course it's love. What else would it be?
Works on guys too. I know someone else who has given rather a lot of money to an East European woman. I don't think they'll ever meet, because most East European women in these scams are actually criminal gangs. But we'll see.
Also, it's worth considering that these scams are marketing funnels designed to select the most gullible people and filter out everyone else. So the victims are self-selecting, because the scams are designed to find people with their particular psychological weaknesses.
But actual love is similar, so where is your differential? I realize you could have a simple answer, "is any money involved", but that would make many very good relationships that work out positively for both partners "scams" at one point. Does it also make every stay at home, or temporarily unemployed person a "scammer", if they are receiving financial help? You need an actual differential on love here. If Hillary starts earning a POTUS salary is her husband a scammer, clearly in it for the long con, since he even cheated on her!
So you need a much better differential when you sarcastically say "of course it's love".
It might be too late now, but I wonder if you could've convinced her to put the money into a trust and have it slowly distributed to her over the remainder of her life.
At the very least, whatever enjoyment she's getting out of helping this person could be stretched out for decades, and it reduces the risk she'll be out on the streets with no options. And if the story is the guy is in debt, usually creditors are willing to negotiate a repayment plan, so it shouldn't be too hard of a sell. You could even say the scammer will benefit, since he won't get taxed as much doing it this way.
Depending on the exact terms, you might be able to fit in a conditional clause on the scammer only receiving money while they're married. Which she shouldn't oppose, since it's the plan; but a scammer would oppose.
> It might be too late now, but I wonder if you could've convinced her to put the money into a trust and have it slowly distributed to her over the remainder of her life.
At which point? Before meeting her paramour, she wouldn't have much incentive to lock her money away from herself. (Would you agree to this?) And afterwards, well, he really needs that money...
Yeah, my dad died in debt (Norway), and we were able to pick any personal effects of minor monetary value without issue, and then make the choice whether to take the rest of his assets and the debts, or neither.
It only really becomes an issue if you have a strong personal attachment to assets that have high monetary value, like e.g. perhaps your childhood home - otherwise it boils down to a financial consideration.
You aren't inheriting the debts - you are inheriting the estate after all debts have been settled. So the estate could be worth 0, but you'll never inherit a negative estate.
That's exactly how this works. Either you take all of it, debts included or nothing. Or in some countries you let lawyers sort it out first, where they make sure all debts are paid off, they take their fee, and then you inherit whatever is left.
I don't think you can inherit cash loan debt. You can inherit property that is still under mortgage (no problem there), but then it's a choice: keep the house and pay the mortgage debt or sell the house/give it to the bank.
In my father's case (which sounds similar to micheal_h's), the problem is that the more you give away the more difficult it become to admit it's a scam since you have to admit both that the love you're looking for doesn't exist as well as the fact that you've been a complete idiot. It's a vicious cycle.
I'd try to get her to buy an annuity or some other way of putting the lump sum out of reach in exchange for a fixed revenue stream -- maybe justify it as a tax thing, or what if she lives ~30 more years due to great new medical science, and then convince her to put a credit hold on her own account (to prevent loans).
Why don't you or family scam her first, and then give the money back slowly?
The thing about Nigerian 419 scammers is that , like most companies, the people you deal with are low wage call center employees, not the ringleaders who get the profit
That's not a bad idea. A family member could offer to help the next transfer by personally delivering the cash, just to make sure that such a large transfer is safe.
Wouldn't that constitute theft, though? The intented recipient is stealing, for sure, but if she wants to send the money and you pretend to deliver but keep it...
In China, there are also lots of scams targeting on the elders, but it is also common that the bank clerks will call the police and the police will call the family to prevent this kind of transactions from happening.
I had a family member lose upwards of $300k before one of her financial agents contacted us. It was a "security system installation and monitoring" guy. Had done it to many people, apparently being the security alarm guy gets a lot of older people to trust you. Luckily we saved some funds and a pension to take care of her, but it was incredibly maddening. It was after another person passed who had kept tabs on her business, as soon as he passed the scam artist started siphoning money.
In my case she still trusted me and we got control as she developed dementia, but it took some time and money. If there is anyone else she likes or trusts more than normal, that might be the only person who csn get through.
At the moment, I'm afraid I'm unable to muster the empathy necessary to understand how you could even begin to help the scammer.
Is there anyone who can still empathize with her? Strategize with them to help her. Make them the goto person that talks about this topic with her while you are in the background.
One of the biggest lessons in my life that I've learned is if I can't empathize with someone, it is very unlikely that I can help them. Of course, this doesn't mean that I am at fault necessarily. But it doesn't matter who is at fault; the fact remains: if I can't empathize, I can't help (and most likely .
Since realizing this, I've found it much more productive to find someone who can empathize with that person. Often, this someone is a person who isn't as emotionally invested in the situation as you may be. It might be a friend of hers that she used to be close with a decade ago but has lost touch since. It might be her neighbor she loves talking to because he is always agreeable (so when he disagrees for once, she is more likely to listen.) I'd try to make a shortlist of such people in her life and enlist one or more of them to help your mother-in-law.
Probably not senile, but certainly a mental breakdown. Which makes 'seeing a doctor' easier said than done. She's not a gentle lady being tricked out of her cash, she's tenaciously ejecting her money to a dude she thinks she's going to marry, while everyone around her is making her miserable.
I've become acquainted with a few 419ers (Nigerian) during trips to Ghana (not the big boys, who are without fail sleaze bags, but the grunts, some of whom are very nice in person) and have done quite some research on how they and the scams work. When it comes to 419ers, they have a wide network across the world. They can get a guy to pick up cash or meet someone, today if need be. It might not even be a Nigerian, they work with other people as well.
Last time I was there, a couple of guys tried to entice me into joining them. Said I would be very successful, I could act as a UN attaché or whatever. Then they told me about a guy from somewhere in SE Asia, don't remember which country but I guess they have debtor's jail, because he had indebted himself and risked prison. He managed to get out and went to Ghana to try and get his money back. He turned out to start working with them instead, a couple of months later he had a mansion and three luxury cars. There are all kinds of crazy stories.
The thing is, most of the scammers and the victims are similar (not the romance scam but the Nigerian letters). They are after a quick buck and don't care much for morals (that's why the money is always someone else's, since by accepting you are entering a conspiracy with the scammer, and you are hesitant to tell someone about it). They live large and spend a lot of money, mostly on worthless consumer stuff like expensive liquor, cars, watches and so on. So the money goes back to the West (North, really) again.
I tried to convince a guy I have come to know a little to invest instead, to build something in his community. He told me about a scammer meeting his client (that's what they call the victims) in Hamburg. He picked up half a million Euro in cash. Took it to buy trucks and other machinery and sent it to Ghana and set up a profitable leasing service in Tema, the main harbour. Another guy built a small but popular mall.
I doubt most of the con artists have a good idea of what happens to their clients though, or that they think about it much. The workers are young and enthusiastic, and the big boys don't give a damn. Many victims turn mad, happened to a friend's uncle who got hooked way back when they sent faxes.
The trick is simple yet powerful - obviously the letters are made to funnel gullible people, but also greedy people with low morals. This would help the scammer justify it to himself. Another justification is that their countries have already been robbed for centuries. By entering a conspiracy, the client will be hesitant to tell anyone about it. After that, it's just the sunk costs fallacy, or "sending good money after bad". Every time the stakes are higher, but the choice is to keep believing you will get paid or say bye bye to even more money than you're sending, and accept the truth. It might also partly be an exploit of the looser bonds between people, where many of us have individual economy and are reticent to share our financials/earning/spending with others, even close friends and family, and especially if we suspect they might disagree.
Scammers are also quick to exploit current events. Last time I went to visit, one guy showed me a con he was working on which was a romance con. He acted as a British officer stationed in Iraq, who had come across some of all of the lost billions of dollars the US brought there in cash.
There are a lot of 419ers in Ghana, disliked by many but they spend in bars and hotels. They tend to live on credit though (the workers), only (hopefully) paying their bills after a payout. I'm not sure about the central police department, but the local police are definitely bought off. I know them via the innkeeper, a Ghanaian who don't like them much but they give him business. It's a crazy world.
Dude, you have GOT to write this up in muuuuuhuch more detail. This is fascinating!! You're a good writer but obviously these few paragraphs are off-the-cuff. Couldn't you make a longer version? I would be careful about your personal association (I mean can you write in a way that isn't linked to you), I hope you can do so anonymously. Very interesting reading! Thanks. Here's a vote for writing more!
Hey, thanks. Perhaps I might, not right now though. I'm not very worried about the association, these things aren't that secret.
I can tell you though that there is some more disturbing things going on in Ghana, with what they call Sakawa Boys. Sakawa is the name for online scams. Sakawa Boys are more into carding/skimming, but there is a way darker side to Sakawa which I don't think is happening with the 419ers. They are also much less approachable, at least to me, Nigerians (at least in Ghana) tend to be very easy going and open.
The thing with Sakawa is that it is tied up with juju/voodoo and dark magic. They will perform various rituals to earn magic, money attracting powers. I'm interested in magic myself but stay the hell away from this. It's hard to know what's real and how the whole thing works, but young men (around 20) often unemployed, poor and lusting for a western lifestyle, status and respect will go to a witch doctor to get magical powers.
The witch doctor will tell them to perform a ritual. It may involve snakes or other animals, but sometimes they will be told to kill a person and bring, well, body parts. After that they will get magic money earning powers. It's shrouded in secrecy and nobody likes to talk about this but I think it's similar to entering a gang, you need to prove yourself. Same thing which also happens in secret societies. It's a way of building unbreakable loyalty because you have done something unthinkable together. The difference with criminal gangs in the west is the whole dark magic thing. Really, it's just about power, bonds and hierarchy.
The thing is, you will see young men (the big boys, usually, around 30 perhaps) with extremely luxurious cars. In an area with people living in shacks you will see someone roll up in a Bentley, even. I don't quite understand how they make all that money. Even young men will have bags of cash. There are Sakawa girls too, who will romance you and steal your card.
This is much harder to know about because nobody will talk about it. I suspect it also involves the drug trade, since West Africa has become a port for cocaine from South America. Sometimes a boat will come ashore with mountains of coke.
There is a guy in the area where I use to visit who always walks around completely naked, in a zombie like state. He could have been 17 last time I was there almost three years ago. I was told someone had performed voodoo on him and he was unable to wear clothes. I'm pretty sure he has been given datura, which may well be the worst drug known to man (apparently, the British soldiers who fought down Bacon's Rebellion took it).
These witch doctors wield considerable power and are a huge problem in parts of West Africa.
Thanks again, I'll write something up when I get some inspiration and peace and quiet.
read this. also fascinating. yes, write it up if you find a good medium (hint hint) to publish it on.
question: you write in one point here "I'm interested in magic myself." You can't say that to this crowd if you said it I would stop reading your article for credibility reasons. So if you believe that any kind of magic or spells exist (that aren't tricks), then you should separate out this belief from your report, because (just telling you honestly) it makes you lose any credibility. if by 'interested in magic' you meant like tricks/illusion (rather than actual magic, which most people here would say doesn't exist) then you should be more explicit.
you've written a lot more interesting things here than even in your original reply. I am fascinated and hope you will find the time to write it up. if you submit it to HN you can refer to this thread where I asked you to :) very very interesting.
I get what you mean, I've been frequenting HN for years so I know the crowd. Regarding magic, to me it's not so much about whether magic exists but what it is. Sure, it's trickery, originally I guess it is what we would call technology, only wider, technology and psychology perhaps. It's about making things come to happen.
I guess I could put it this way, Clarke's quote ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") is mistaken, any sufficiently advanced technology is magic, it's just that we are disillusioned.
I agree that it's more honest to be an illusionist than a witch doctor, but there are powerful magicians out there today, take Trump for instance, he's got the whole world enthralled.
I have just summoned tens of points to my karma account using nothing but my words, and I'm sure there are more to come.
It's not a big deal. Thanks for the advice though. ;)
from what you've just stated it's fine. What I meant is that there are people who believe you could levitate objects with your mind (like in the xmen comic books) and since you're writing about things that are already really, really outlandish it's SUPER-important not to fall into a comic-book style of narration!! :) If you thought you (or anyone) could actually levitate objects with your mind (and no technology) then it would make everything that you wrote about what you've just shared with us really suspect.
if you write it the way you've just written it, that won't be an issue. Just be clear that what you've shared with us just now already sounds like a comic book!! :) I mean, you've literally written that there are people who ask people to kill someone and get body parts, as part of voodoo. There are people walking around naked after being given drugs. The last thing that is needed is for the narrator to themselves also be suspect, for example by reporting that someone shows him how to levitate objects with his mind (no tricks and technology), and that it works.
So I really look forward to reading more whenever you write it up. What you've written so far is already comic-book style! But I hope you won't embellish and will stick to the facts. :)
I just want to remind you that it is you who are worried about my credibility, not me. So thank you for the advice, but I decline. It is also you who seem preoccupied with levitation.
Regarding the events, it's not comics. It's happening, and it's gotten worse the last 10 years. Voodoo comes from the deltas stretching from eastern Ghana over Togo and Benin to western Nigeria. Whatever it is they do they wield considerable control over people, to the point where big investments are dropped, houses never finished, parents leaving babies to fend for themselves.
But it's like @qb45 says, just google it. I want to advise though that there are many rumours as well, not the least because witch doctors have an interest in building the fear and the criminals want to instil respect and keep away nosy people.
Lastly, you come across as pretty rude to me. Just want to remind you that their is another person writing this, and I don't particularly like being talked about in third person and discredited for sharing an experience. So a piece of advice in return, think for a moment about they way you write about my writing having "issues" or what is or is not "needed", and it'll be fine.
> Just be clear that what you've shared with us just now already sounds like a comic book!! :) I mean, you've literally written that there are people who ask people to kill someone and get body parts, as part of voodoo. There are people walking around naked after being given drugs.
Uh, remind me not to come over for dinner. Seriously if you think OP's account is, business as usual, well - you and I live in different worlds, or you've seen a lot more of the seedy underbelly of criminal organizations than I have! Which is what makes OP's write-up interesting.
It's interesting because it's first-person. The list you've given is interesting too but all over the map - OP can report as a direct source, in the first person, not curate information from elsewhere. (Which is why I think it's important for him to not to accidentally sound like he's saying he's able to levitate things with his mind or anything like that. his followup makes this clear.)
if he does write something, you don't have to read it - but I certainly will!
No, I have no direct experience with that extreme stuff, but I grew up in somewhat violent neighborhood. And to this day I have a mild fascination with all things NSFL ;)
Magic is real. Look anywhere in the world outside of modern urban areas and you will find people who have experienced it first hand. It is true that every culture in the world has different gods and spirits, but they all have some conceptions of magic and a spirit realm. The existence and character of this phenomenon has been discovered and independently rediscovered many times throughout and preceding recorded history, but because of the conditions of their environment and because of their philosophical preconceptions western technocrats deny it. Magic is an antifragile phenomenon; it lives in and feeds upon chaos. It can't be tested in a controlled environment anymore than you can study primate mating habits in an environment devoid of oxygen. But in real life it works, and the only truly empirical thing to do is to try it for yourself, in the context of your own life, and see how real it can be.
> The trick is simple yet powerful - obviously the letters are made to funnel gullible people, but also greedy people with low morals. This would help the scammer justify it to himself.
I guess it also helps the client justify things to himself. There is money in people who feel guilty.
It's difficult. obviously if you were to intervene (for example by pretending to take an interest) to help, the scammer would realize what you are doing.
you are saying that your mother is not senile, and is just (acting) 'stupid'. But if this is the case, why don't you ask her about the details (excuses and so forth)?
Has she told you things like, "Yes, I realize that there are scams, but this is not one of them."
Is she otherwise intelligent? If she is intelligent and you got as far as her saying, "Yes, I realize there are scams, but this is not oen of them" then you could discuss rationally how you know...
the scammer could also kind of believe it from their end.
I don't know what are "those" scams but many scammers go very far, as far as giving you their cellphone number that works and they pick up, and even meet you in person. There are youtube videos of scammers meeting people and then called out on lie they just leave. I would assume if she paid so much and still have money, she is priobably on scammers vip list so I wouldn't be suprised if multiple "lawyers" and other scums meet her and show her papers that all is good in regarding to her $3.5 MM, it just needs more time.
Oh wow. Most of the types of romance scams I've read about involve the scammers pretending to be people in other countries, inventing dilemmas that require money while romancing the victim. I assumed this to be the case, but it apparently is not. That is scarier.
No you are correct, but those usually end up when someone pays few hundred bucks. I assume getting $200,000 out of your victim puts him/her in a special category.
There is proof to the contrary that "startups work" and that working for equity is a good use of someone's time. I still believe it. It's kind of irrational and outlandish.
When I work on startups with others, this isn't a scam.
So your terms "irrational", "outlandish", "without a shred of proof" or with "proof to the contrary" is insufficient. You need to come up with a more polarizing differential that can differentiate between a dyed-in-the-wool scam and love amidst sketchy-ass finances.
There's a difference between a low probability of success that has a net negative financial value (startups, lotteries, America's Cup bids) and fraud.
In one case, there are just big risks that on average won't work out. In the other, there is no possibility for success because one party has no intention of following through on their promises.
If the scammer were actually in love, and just taking the money with the intention of investing it, but consistently blowing it in Vegas due to a gambling addiction, that wouldn't be fraud because he's still being honest.
It's the lying at issue, not the soundness of the investment.
And frankly I don't see many people saying "take options at a random startup to get rich, that's a good financial investment". Have you?
>There's a difference between a low probability of success that has a net negative financial value (startups, lotteries, America's Cup bids) and fraud.
That's not my point. if there's even a SINGLE person who is checking off all of the fraud checkmarks but is genuine, then it's more like a lottery.
For example, the famous Fedex story (you can google) where Fedex didn't have just a few more weeks of cash runway and would have had to shutter as it tried to raise it's investment round, and the founder gambled in Vegas to make their fuel run. Google that story.
100% scammer red flags - except it's real.
So, we have to differentiate. The mother in this equation is playing a lottery ticket that this particular person isn't a scammer. If there's even a single genuine story like that, anywhere, then that means it's a lottery ticket.
So it's not as simple as you say. For your question at the end, yes, I have seen that. :)
that's not a good differentiator because by the definition you have just given, any fraudster who themselves convinces themselves to believe their scam is no longer committing a scam. I reject that suggestion.
from the startup world, uBeam is a fraud, it's a scam: but it doesn't matter if their intent is valid or if they have convinced themselves to believe it. (I mention this as it's one of the only examples from the startup world.)
the legal situation may be different, but as a practical matter I don't think what you're saying is enough.
> how do you believe someone loves you and is going to marry you without seeing them?
How does one believe that? Well, they choose to. It might very well be irrational, it might be outlandish, yet they still choose to believe it.
People choose to believe all sorts of outlandish things all the time. Sometimes they were right after all, sometimes not. Given that this instance perfectly fits established patterns of scams I think it's a perfectly fair assumption that this is a scam until proven otherwise.
There is a legal process for declaring somebody in your family (elderly parents, developmentally disabled persons, etc) incompetent and taking charge of their financial affairs as power of attorney, have you talked to a lawyer?
I don't know how these people justify it to themselves. They have taken 100% of her money, plus a unknown amount of debt (I've found $100k in loans so far). My mother-in-law is not 'going to be okay'. To be honest, once she figures out that there isn't $3.5MM in the Bank of Israel, she's probably going to look for the quick exit.
At the moment, I'm afraid I'm unable to muster the empathy necessary to understand how you could even begin to help the scammer.